The S-trig horror

[museslave]

Okay, so I'm going to be doing this live act with a very basic dot com modular.
Instead of buying the clunky, burdensome, beautiful-wood with cheap-keys dot com controller keyboard, I wanted to get something more solid and compact.
I decided that getting a keyboard that is also an analog synthesizer would be a great plan.
Of course, this is the point where all of a sudden, eBay is a barren wasteland of not one single one of the keyboards I had in mind.
Tell me WHEN on EARTH has it ever been that there wasn't at least FIVE SH-101s available at any given time??? Last week, that's when. The dry spell was broken tonight, when one was posted, but sheesh. (not that I really wanted that plastic nightmare, but it would suit my purpose)
Do you realize that in the past 2 and a half weeks there has not been ONE Korg MS-10 on eBay (in America)? Not ONE! Again, I seem to remember a time when MS-10s were relatively frequently available. (not that I intended to control the dot com with an MS-10, hz/v don't you know)
The days of moderately priced and available analog are fading. :::shudders:::
A KORG X-11 GOING FOR $777.77? SERIOUSLY?? No, really. What on EARTH would make people bid one of the most limited analog sound devices available up to $777? It wasn't that long ago that you could get a frickin' ODYSSEY for $700!
I recently sold a Korg MonoPoly for less than $777!
Anyway, I'm getting off of the subject.
So, I started thinking about the Micromoog... it would be a lovely controller. I sold my last one to buy a Minimoog, but I wouldn't mind having another... it would be a blast to use as a modular controller, plus it would be so delightfully integratable with a dot com modular.
All I'd need is a cinch-jones to quarter inch adapter, right? And those are plentiful. Why, I've seen them on eBay and even Synthesizers.com sells them! I'm set, right?
Nope, not quite.
Apparently, the general public only wants to be able to control their Moogs, not to control WITH their Moogs. How do I know this? Because of all of the available adapters I've seen, they've only been male C-J to male quarter inch. The "in" CV port is female on a Micromoog. The out, with which I would need to be controlling the modular, is MALE.

So... anyone know a source for FEMALE C-J to male quarter inch adapters? Or is someone going to tell me I need to go to Radio Shack and get good with a soldering iron? ; )

Or, perhaps someone has a Roland SH-09 they'd like to sell me and I can skip the whole S-trig horror?

[CTRLSHFT]

Okay, so I'm going to be doing this live act with a very basic dot com modular.
Instead of buying the clunky, burdensome, beautiful-wood with cheap-keys dot com controller keyboard, I wanted to get something more solid and compact.
I decided that getting a keyboard that is also an analog synthesizer would be a great plan.
Of course, this is the point where all of a sudden, eBay is a barren wasteland of not one single one of the keyboards I had in mind.
Tell me WHEN on EARTH has it ever been that there wasn't at least FIVE SH-101s available at any given time??? Last week, that's when. The dry spell was broken tonight, when one was posted, but sheesh. (not that I really wanted that plastic nightmare, but it would suit my purpose)
Do you realize that in the past 2 and a half weeks there has not been ONE Korg MS-10 on eBay (in America)? Not ONE! Again, I seem to remember a time when MS-10s were relatively frequently available. (not that I intended to control the dot com with an MS-10, hz/v don't you know)
The days of moderately priced and available analog are fading. :::shudders:::
A KORG X-11 GOING FOR $777.77? SERIOUSLY?? No, really. What on EARTH would make people bid one of the most limited analog sound devices available up to $777? It wasn't that long ago that you could get a frickin' ODYSSEY for $700!
I recently sold a Korg MonoPoly for less than $777!
Anyway, I'm getting off of the subject.
So, I started thinking about the Micromoog... it would be a lovely controller. I sold my last one to buy a Minimoog, but I wouldn't mind having another... it would be a blast to use as a modular controller, plus it would be so delightfully integratable with a dot com modular.
All I'd need is a cinch-jones to quarter inch adapter, right? And those are plentiful. Why, I've seen them on eBay and even Synthesizers.com sells them! I'm set, right?
Nope, not quite.
Apparently, the general public only wants to be able to control their Moogs, not to control WITH their Moogs. How do I know this? Because of all of the available adapters I've seen, they've only been male C-J to male quarter inch. The "in" CV port is female on a Micromoog. The out, with which I would need to be controlling the modular, is MALE.

So... anyone know a source for FEMALE C-J to male quarter inch adapters? Or is someone going to tell me I need to go to Radio Shack and get good with a soldering iron? ; )

Or, perhaps someone has a Roland SH-09 they'd like to sell me and I can skip the whole S-trig horror?

a nice midi controller and a midi-cv converter do the trick pretty well too...

[museslave]

a nice midi controller and a midi-cv converter do the trick pretty well too...

:::writhes::: Well, yes. That would be an easy way to fix the problem... however:

1. I have that unstudied medical condition called "analog purism disorder (or "APD")," which results in me having seizures if I am exposed to MIDI for too long

2. The "band" I am doing is a retro concept... a Moogsploitation band where I play a modular to pre-recorded music in the style of that ridiculous music that existed between 1968 and 1973 which featured Moog synths at the expense of all else, often including quality. In that spirit, I want to be using synthesizers that are at least analog-consistent if not aesthetically consistent. (obviously, I can't be using a Moog modular...) This is why a Micromoog would be nice... it would be a Moog, and at least be in line with the heritage of the music

3. If I just used a MIDI controller, I would have to buy more modules, and I currently cannot afford more modules. Having things like a slew limiter, noise generator, sample and hold, and VCA and an audio input built into whatever monophonic I'm using as a controller will save me hundreds of dollars.

[CTRLSHFT]

a nice midi controller and a midi-cv converter do the trick pretty well too...

:::writhes::: Well, yes. That would be an easy way to fix the problem... however:

1. I have that unstudied medical condition called "analog purism disorder (or "APD")," which results in me having seizures if I am exposed to MIDI for too long

2. The "band" I am doing is a retro concept... a Moogsploitation band where I play a modular to pre-recorded music in the style of that ridiculous music that existed between 1968 and 1973 which featured Moog synths at the expense of all else, often including quality. In that spirit, I want to be using synthesizers that are at least analog-consistent if not aesthetically consistent. (obviously, I can't be using a Moog modular...) This is why a Micromoog would be nice... it would be a Moog, and at least be in line with the heritage of the music

3. If I just used a MIDI controller, I would have to buy more modules, and I currently cannot afford more modules. Having things like a slew limiter, noise generator, sample and hold, and VCA and an audio input built into whatever monophonic I'm using as a controller will save me hundreds of dollars.

yeah midi is a pain.. however i've had alot of fun using midi-cv converters. what monophonic will you be using that has a slew limiter built in? the vca is a good point i guess, provided you don't have one in your current setup somewhere... past that though a cp-251 would handle lag processing/noise/s&h all in one, no need for a ton of modules, definitely cheaper than any synth that might have those features on it, and comparable to purchasing all those units individually on synthesizers.com.

anywho, i can see how having a monosynth kb would be desireable for your setup though, before i sold my sh-09 it was very handy for turning my moogerfooger setup into a playable modular.

[Kevin Lightner]

I'm assuming the mention of CV is just a typo and you meant trig or gate.

Here's the problem....


When adapting from a voltage gate to a switch trigger, all you need is a transistor and a resistor or two. The gate voltage itself powers this.

But going the other way, switch trigger to voltage gate, means that voltage has to come from somewhere.
On a Moog, that power can come from the accessory jack(s) but then requires an additional plug and more wiring.

I have all the parts in stock, as do many techs.
It shouldn't be too hard to have one custom made, but it could cost an hour of a tech's time plus parts.
That would put such a cable up around $80 or so.

It is also possible to mod most moogs to produce voltage gates.
This is probably easier than making a cable, but has its own drawbacks too (downtime, modded synth, etc.)

[museslave]

what monophonic will you be using that has a slew limiter built in?

Well, most of them if the slew limiting is limited to keyboard CV... portamento. : )

anywho, i can see how having a monosynth kb would be desireable for your setup though, before i sold my sh-09 it was very handy for turning my moogerfooger setup into a playable modular.

I wish you had sold your SH-09 to me!

[museslave]

I'm assuming the mention of CV is just a typo and you meant trig or gate.

Well, as "typos" are usually defined as an accident of typing, then no... it wasn't a typo at all. However, it was a total mental lapse brought on by eBay generated stress. Thanks for keeping me on my toes!

Here's the problem....

When adapting from a voltage gate to a switch trigger, all you need is a transistor and a resistor or two. The gate voltage itself powers this.

But going the other way, switch trigger to voltage gate, means that voltage has to come from somewhere.
On a Moog, that power can come from the accessory jack(s) but then requires an additional plug and more wiring.

I have all the parts in stock, as do many techs.
It shouldn't be too hard to have one custom made, but it could cost an hour of a tech's time plus parts.
That would put such a cable up around $80 or so.

It is also possible to mod most moogs to produce voltage gates.
This is probably easier than making a cable, but has its own drawbacks too (downtime, modded synth, etc.)

Ah, yes. This makes sense. Poo! That very unfortunately knocks the Micromoog out of the running. Dang. For want of a gate, a nice aesthetic (both functional and visual) was lost. That would exceed my current budget, alas.
Thanks for the info, Kevin!

[eric coleridge]

Okay, so I'm going to be doing this live act with a very basic dot com modular.
Instead of buying the clunky, burdensome, beautiful-wood with cheap-keys dot com controller keyboard, I wanted to get something more solid and compact.
I decided that getting a keyboard that is also an analog synthesizer would be a great plan.
So, I started thinking about the Micromoog...

Why don't you just use your MonoPoly? I don't think the Micro is that much, if at all, smaller than the MP. Plus, you won't have to worry about gate conversion...

One thing that is really cool about the Micro, as you may know already, the external signal input doubles as an Oscillator direct output... so you could use it to replace 1 oscillator in your small dot.com set-up...

All I'd need is a cinch-jones to quarter inch adapter, right? And those are plentiful. Why, I've seen them on eBay and even Synthesizers.com sells them! I'm set, right?
Nope, not quite.
Apparently, the general public only wants to be able to control their Moogs, not to control WITH their Moogs. How do I know this? Because of all of the available adapters I've seen, they've only been male C-J to male quarter inch. The "in" CV port is female on a Micromoog. The out, with which I would need to be controlling the modular, is MALE.

This is not entirely true, as both S-trig ports (male and female) function on the Micro, I believe, as inputs or outputs... which solves one problem...

You still have to deal with the problem, as Kevin wrote, of converting the Micro's S-trig signal to a Gate signal for the DotCom.

This can be accomplished in the ways that Kevin wrote (1.making the circuit-- which I've done and is extremely simple--just 3 components-- and would be a good thing for you to learn or 2. modding your Micro to send gate-- which would be very easy also--- just solder a wire to the right spot and then to a jack you'll install on the Micro), or you can just convert the S-trig signal on your DotComs attentuator/offset and/or signal processor modules.

It's not as difficult to do as it may initially appear, but it may still be a hassle, and therefore the Micro is not the most obvious choice as a controller for a synth requiring V-Gates.

What about the Rogue??? It has S-trig AND Gate outputs built in (and they're all already 1/4").

As for the SH09, I think you'd be much better off with an SH101... I think they sound better and do alot more for about the same price (although the 101 is much flimsier than the sturdy 09).

I think another great option would be an Arp Axxe or Arp Solus. Axxes are small, usually dirt cheap, and most have great CV implementation. The Solus is even better, comes in a built in case, still compact, 2-oscillatoirs, ext. RM input, but much rarer and more expensive too...

[museslave]

Why don't you just use your MonoPoly? I don't think the Micro is that much, if at all, smaller than the MP. Plus, you won't have to worry about gate conversion...

Aye, there's the rub... I sold the MonoPoly to afford this whole process. : )

One thing that is really cool about the Micro, as you may know already, the external signal input doubles as an Oscillator direct output... so you could use it to replace 1 oscillator in your small dot.com set-up...

I did not know this... are you saying that jack has two functions?? I plug a cable into the input and it outputs an oscillator??

This is not entirely true, as both S-trig ports (male and female) function on the Micro, I believe, as inputs or outputs... which solves one problem...

You still have to deal with the problem, as Kevin wrote, of converting the Micro's S-trig signal to a Gate signal for the DotCom.

This can be accomplished in the ways that Kevin wrote (1.making the circuit-- which I've done and is extremely simple--just 3 components-- and would be a good thing for you to learn or 2. modding your Micro to send gate-- which would be very easy also--- just solder a wire to the right spot and then to a jack you'll install on the Micro), or you can just convert the S-trig signal on your DotComs attentuator/offset and/or signal processor modules.

It WOULD be good for me to learn to do stuff like this, it's true. I suppose if I just forced myself to buy the Micro, it would force me to learn, right?
I do not want to mod any of my synths. Like I've said before, I'm not necessarily opposed to others doing it, provided not every model in existence is changed, but for me personally, I don't want to change anything!
I know what a gate does, but I do not understand how that module on my system could alter a trigger source into a gate source. (Argh, I have really got to start learning the electronics-end of this stuff) It may not be the route for me, as I am starting out with an 8-space rack mounting for the dot com, and I don't want to sacrifice a space to the Signal Processor when I will need things as basic as EGs!

What about the Rogue??? It has S-trig AND Gate outputs built in (and they're all already 1/4").

Okay, I looked at the Prodigy, which does NOT have CV/etc. outputs, and assumed that the Rogue wouldn't either. But if it does, then I would consider the Rogue! Of course, I do have a problem with their price vs. functionality (as has been discussed by you and I and others in this forum before, hee hee), but if they have CV and gate out, that is something I need to add to the list.

As for the SH09, I think you'd be much better off with an SH101... I think they sound better and do alot more for about the same price (although the 101 is much flimsier than the sturdy 09).

Well, I have to admit I am put off by three things:
1. Plastic
2. 1980s look
3. Genre association coupled with sound
The SH101 has a somewhat definitive sound that I am not against, but am not attracted to, either. The SH-09 sounds a bit messier, which I like. I absolutely LOVE the aesthetics of the SH-09, too. I have absolutely no need for or desire for a digital sequencer in this application, nor battery operation, nor being able to be hand-held. I'm going to be playing the cheesiest sort of music imagineable!

I think another great option would be an Arp Axxe or Arp Solus. Axxes are small, usually dirt cheap, and most have great CV implementation. The Solus is even better, comes in a built in case, still compact, 2-oscillatoirs, ext. RM input, but much rarer and more expensive too...

I have owned one Arp Axxe, and I was pleased with the sound... but HATED the sliders. I don't know what it is with Arp sliders, but they are worthless to me if they're stiff. I ended up returning the Axxe I bought almost immediately. Since then, I have looked at Axxes on eBay, and nearly every single one says "oh, the sliders are a bit stuff, but that's no big deal." Um... it's a big deal if you're a person who plays an analog synth in realtime! If I found an Axxe on eBay where the seller said "the sliders are not stiff!" I would consider it!
I have nothing against the Solus except that it goes for too much money. Oh, and there's something digital on it, which as you're probably begining to note, interferes with my APD (analog purism disorder). ; )

[dr_floyd]

The Rogue and later model Prodigys do have CV, trigger I/O.

The Rogue has combined a V-trigger input and S-Trigger output onto a stereo 1/4" jack.

The Rogue combines the CV in and out on the same jack. The tip is the CV output from the Rogue.

[Kevin Lightner]

The suboctaves on your Micromoog are generated digitally.

, which as you're probably begining to note, interferes with my APD (analog purism disorder). ; )

Still, I wouldn't want you to lose that and end up with LAPD.

[museslave]

The suboctaves on your Micromoog are generated digitally.

Still, I wouldn't want you to lose that and end up with LAPD.

How does that work? Is it achieved with a microprocessor?

And, as for your sarcasm:
I would think a person such as yourself would appreciate those of us who favor analog sound... otherwise analog synth repair would have died out permanently in 1985. People like me, who insist upon vintage analog equipment not only pay for your services (although I have not, yet), but we also lead others to believe that this equipment is valuable (when they themselves cannot perceive a difference), resulting in the need for more repair.
You may think my desire for purely analog devices is stupid, but you owe a debt to this sort of stupidity.

[Kevin Lightner]

I don't think your desire for all analog is stupid and I never meant to imply it.
I am just telling you the truth about your Micromoog.
It uses a digital CMOS flip flop IC to divide down the VCO.
Please don't shoot the messenger.

And while I don't think your quest for all analog is stupid, I also think that there's a lot of misinformation and subsequent arguments out there about what's analog or digital in the first place.
I personally don't care as long as it sounds good.
But facts are facts and when definitions get twisted so widely, we end up with people saying that everything's digital, everything's analog, etc.
A no win argument.
The fact that you might not have known the suboctaves were done this way may show that it doesn't really matter much to begin with.

[eric coleridge]

One thing that is really cool about the Micro, as you may know already, the external signal input doubles as an Oscillator direct output... so you could use it to replace 1 oscillator in your small dot.com set-up...

I did not know this... are you saying that jack has two functions?? I plug a cable into the input and it outputs an oscillator??

Yep. Exactly. It's in the manual... pretty cool, huh?

I know what a gate does, but I do not understand how that module on my system could alter a trigger source into a gate source. (Argh, I have really got to start learning the electronics-end of this stuff) It may not be the route for me, as I am starting out with an 8-space rack mounting for the dot com, and I don't want to sacrifice a space to the Signal Processor when I will need things as basic as EGs!

Trigggers are not S-trigs. It's something different.

Gates and S-trigs can be converted because they're sort of the opposite of one another. Gates use a rising voltage to "trigger" the Env.Gen. S-trigs, on the other hand, use a falling voltage (falling to ground, ostensibly, and "shorting", thus "S"-trig). So one way to convert them is with an Inverter (like on the inverting attentuator on alot of synth modules). However, voltage levels used for gates, triggers, and S-trigs, is not at a uniform level between different synths, manufaturers, etc... so you may also have to "offset" the voltage a little, then invert it (or vice versa).

It's understandable that you wouldn't want to take up space on your portable set-up for this function; Howver, this is a basic synth function that you may find you are already planning on including anyway(attentuators, inverters, offsets).

Incidentally, this is one major reason why I've gone down the route of building my own modular (as oppossed to assembling pre-configured modules). It's so that I can incorporate all the functions I want in the amount of space I want to use.

Okay, I looked at the Prodigy, which does NOT have CV/etc. outputs, and assumed that the Rogue wouldn't either. But if it does, then I would consider the Rogue! Of course, I do have a problem with their price vs. functionality (as has been discussed by you and I and others in this forum before, hee hee), but if they have CV and gate out, that is something I need to add to the list.

Later Prodigys (which seem from e-bay to be less common than earlier ones) have a fuller CV implementation. They have CV in/outs, filter CV in, osc.2 CV in, and a S-trig in. However, on most Moogs I've used, the S-trig "in" will function as an "out" as well. Haven't tried it, but probably true for Prodigy too.

The Rogue has CV in/out, Ext. audio in, and I believe, both S-trig and Gate In/outs.
Dr. Floyd has written that it is only Gate in and S-trig out, but I believe he is mistaken (no offense, of course, Dr.Floyd). But it's easy enough to find out-- just down load the user manual.

The SH101 has a somewhat definitive sound that I am not against, but am not attracted to, either. The SH-09 sounds a bit messier, which I like. I absolutely LOVE the aesthetics of the SH-09, too. I have absolutely no need for or desire for a digital sequencer in this application, nor battery operation, nor being able to be hand-held. I'm going to be playing the cheesiest sort of music imagineable!

I have a different opinion. To me, the 09 sounds thinner. But this is, of course, totally subjective.
The SH101 uses a Curtis 3340 VCO chip, as used in the Memory Moog, Prophet 5, and Pro-1. It definitely has a different--more 80s--kind of sound. But I kind of liked mine. And I also liked the onboard sequencer which can be externalized through the CV out... which is pretty useful in some applications... But I hated the flimsiness of the 101...

I also love the look and build of the 09. It's super compact and very robust. Also, don't forget about the SH-2 and SH-1. Both look like the 09, but with different features. The SH-1, is the oldest-- probably the most "analog" as far as discrete electronics, and also the most full featured. But it's fairly rare to come by.

I have owned one Arp Axxe, and I was pleased with the sound... but HATED the sliders.

Yep. I actually like sliders as controllers, but unfortunately, Arp's sliders have not aged well. It's a tradgedy, because, IMO Arps are among the very best synths made aside from this drawback.

I have nothing against the Solus except that it goes for too much money. Oh, and there's something digital on it, which as you're probably begining to note, interferes with my APD (analog purism disorder). ; )

The Ring Mod is a "digital" circuit. I don't know what that means exactly, and it may not be exactly the same as what we normally describe as "digital". But I doubt if anyone could tell the difference. Also, unlike most synths with RM, you can use an external signal with the Solus's RM. Which is pretty cool.

FWIW, the Rogue also has a "digital" noise circuit. Again, not entirely sure if it's quite the same as what we now describe as "digital" vis a vis ESP or FM synthesis.

Perhaps Mr Lightener, or some other tech minded member, could help us better understand this use of "digital" circuitry in the Solus and Rogue???

[eric coleridge]

I don't think your desire for all analog is stupid and I never meant to imply it.
I am just telling you the truth about your Micromoog.
It uses a digital CMOS flip flop IC to divide down the VCO.
Please don't shoot the messenger.

My last response was posted before reading the above. This partially answers my question and leads me to another thought Museslave:

This term "digital" is also somewhat of a misnomer. What I usually refer to as "digital" should probably more accurately be described as "FM" or "ESP". When I hear the term "digital" I think of DX-7s and other 80s additive synths, as well as, newer "modeling" type synths. But these are only two applications of digital circuitry. The "digital" circuits on the Solus, Rogue, and Micro, are not complex microprossesers computing algorithms as is true in FM and ESP. They're very simple chips that use an "on"/"off" or digital function... and really aren't all that different than "analog" chips used throughout purely analog synths.

I don't understand it exactly, but this is my basic synopsis-- if it makes any sense.