Maybe what they really should make next?

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museslave
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Post by museslave » Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:22 pm

CTRLSHFT wrote:
museslave wrote:that perspective does kind of knock the originals into a catagory of antiquity, and obsolensence, instead of instruments..
My intent was to indicate that if parts that will age and degrade and ultimately fail cannot be replaced because they are no longer available, the devices can no longer be used.
Analog synthesizers will never be obsolete... but if they cannot be repaired, they will simply disappear.

i
CTRLSHFT wrote: don't think analog synths as a whole will ever die though.. they will always be exotic, they will always have a fan base for this reason.
They may have a fan base, but if the parts do not exist to repair them, they WILL die. That is my point, based upon Kevin's statements.
As an analog purist, I am horrified by this.

CTRLSHFT wrote:we'll see i guess.. who knows what sort of manufacturing tech there will be in even as little as 10 years time..
Perhaps there will be a renaissance of analog technology, someday.
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Post by dr_floyd » Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:09 pm

How can something that does not sound like the thing its replacing keep the name of that thing alive?
Compared directly to two Minimoogs in the 1800 and 8300 serial number range, it sounds like the original all right. The Minimax lacks the stature and it's no original, no doubt there, but you can't fault the sound.

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Post by OysterRock » Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:53 pm

The sad truth is that how many original Minimoogs (or any other 70s analogs) do you think are going to survive another 30 years? Sad to say, but these things weren't made to last forever, no matter how well they were built. I mean, many of the vintage synths you can find are barely holding on as it is. You'd be hard pressed to find any pre-restored piece of electronic gear 30+ years old without some sort of problem, imagine them lasting another couple of decades. Don't think so.

Maybe someone should start some sort of Society for the Preservation of Analog Synthesizers (SPAS). How about it, muse? :)

As for analog technology disappearing altogether. Ain't gonna happen, don't worry about that. We live in an analog world (well, not really, but thats sort of getting into philosophy that I won't delve into just yet). Digital technology will always rely on an analog front end, so there will ALWAYS be a need for analog electronics.

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Post by Sweep » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:55 pm

It depends on how they've been kept and used, of course. The number of really good condition analogue synths is obviously going to reduce. On the other hand I've just let my Korg MS20 go after owning it since 1984, and I'd have been confident about it continuing to work well for a long time yet if I'd kept it - it worked every bit as well as it did 23 years ago, and it's had a complete overhaul from the dealer who's selling it.

There must be a few other synths with that kind of history, never gigged for decades, if ever, and kept in good conditions. Finding them may not be easy, though.

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Post by museslave » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:39 pm

dr_floyd wrote:Compared directly to two Minimoogs in the 1800 and 8300 serial number range, it sounds like the original all right. The Minimax lacks the stature and it's no original, no doubt there, but you can't fault the sound.
Well, I've never heard it... you may be right. However, it isn't the newbie kids who are obsessed with the brand name "Moog" that are shelling out $2000+ for Minimoogs. A lot of people with a lot of money are out there desperate to get a hold of a Minimoog. Are you really asserting that it's purely hype that has people spending THAT amount of money when they could be getting the Creamware product?
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Post by museslave » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:42 pm

OysterRock wrote:Maybe someone should start some sort of Society for the Preservation of Analog Synthesizers (SPAS). How about it, muse? :)
Well, I don't know anyone who is as totally obsessed and worshipful about this stuff as I am, so maybe I'm the guy for the job. I need to start befriending billionaires... perhaps I need to scour the globe searching for lonely millionaire widows and convince them they need to invest in a corporation which will focus on faithfully reproducing components used in all of the best analog synthesizers! I'll get on that! :)
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Post by museslave » Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:47 pm

Sweep wrote:It depends on how they've been kept and used, of course. The number of really good condition analogue synths is obviously going to reduce.
Well, the thing I've heard from several professional synth techs like Kevin and Wes Taggart is that a lot of analog components are going to fail whether they've been babied, or even USED or not... and if that is true, then analog synths will ALL start to die at the point where those parts cannot be replaced.
Sweep wrote:On the other hand I've just let my Korg MS20 go after owning it since 1984, and I'd have been confident about it continuing to work well for a long time yet if I'd kept it - it worked every bit as well as it did 23 years ago, and it's had a complete overhaul from the dealer who's selling it.
Yes, I've gone through similar things. Every synth I have recently sold, I sold NOT because I didn't want the device, but because I knew that if it failed, I wouldn't necessarily have the motivation to invest in it because I hadn't been playing them as much. I didn't want to sell my MonoPoly or my SH-1000, etc... but the truth is, they weren't getting played... and synths that do not get played (in my experience) get sick... and if they're not played, and get sick, then what is my motivation to actually FIX them? (and, where do I get the dough?)
Sweep wrote:There must be a few other synths with that kind of history, never gigged for decades, if ever, and kept in good conditions. Finding them may not be easy, though.
I have heard from several techs also that synths not played since production may STILL develop problems! DEPRESSING
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Post by rg » Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:13 pm

Well I'm glad I am not the only one who thinks about his equipment eventually failing. It freaks me out. Someone needs to build a Michael Jackson anti aging chamber to keep our gear in.

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Post by CTRLSHFT » Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:15 pm

CTRLSHFT wrote:that perspective does kind of knock the originals into a category of antiquity, and obsolensence, instead of instruments..
museslave wrote:My intent was to indicate that if parts that will age and degrade and ultimately fail cannot be replaced because they are no longer available, the devices can no longer be used.
Analog synthesizers will never be obsolete... but if they cannot be repaired, they will simply disappear.
that was my point too.. antiquity in general means non-functionality when it comes to electronic equipment, due to the ever looming end of useful service-life of volitile parts like capacitors, etc.
CTRLSHFT wrote: i don't think analog synths as a whole will ever die though.. they will always be exotic, they will always have a fan base for this reason.
museslave wrote:They may have a fan base, but if the parts do not exist to repair them, they WILL die. That is my point, based upon Kevin's statements.
As an analog purist, I am horrified by this.
I was referring to newer machines with parts that won't be going the way of the dodo. as far things like the minimoog go, i think Kevin pretty well summed up the difficulties in sourcing parts at this day and age, let alone another 20 years down the road.. alas. musicians with old gear: USE IT! Don't wait 'til it's too late! :/

CTRLSHFT wrote:we'll see i guess.. who knows what sort of manufacturing tech there will be in even as little as 10 years time..
museslave wrote: Perhaps there will be a renaissance of analog technology, someday.
i honestly think we're in it right now. moog just released the first consumer level monosynth they've put out since like what, 20-25 years ago?

DSI has had a 2vco/2 wavetable osc monosynth on the market for like 5 years now.

there are easily obtainable versions of the tb303 on the market. future-retro is even releasing a rackable ms-20-ish synth this summer with a tag of ~$600!

theres even a company making analog drum machines right now.

it's a good time to be a musician with a taste for analog i think. :)
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Post by cheveux.boucles » Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:39 pm

No one shoot me for saying this, but I was thinking, and, I can imagine many of the 70's and 80's analog synths that don't have the same components being made, could just have those parts replaced with something just a tad different. It's pretty neat to think about, because people could have synths that (even though they are both the same) sound unique, almost human in the sense that you can find a certain characteristic of that particular (unique) synth.
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Kevin Lightner
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Post by Kevin Lightner » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:09 pm

In the years to come, people will substitute parts, use knockoffs, make compromises and even scrap other instruments.
The prices will rise as well.

But I'd like to offer that all of us are far more mortal than these synths.
We're gonna die. It's a given.
The instruments and their followers will change over time.
I have to laugh when I get emails requesting a bunch of parts for a synth "just in case" something goes bad.
This is insecurity speaking, not insurance.
With any truly rare parts, these types of actions remove parts from the market for valid repairs.
They sit in a drawer instead and the odds are far greater that the owner will die before they're ever needed.

Right now, all the Vgers, DSIs and every other synth is degrading too.
Time will take it's toll on all of them.
So if you truly love a present day instrument and fancy yourself as someone who will still be around in 25 years, now is the time to buy another one of the same instrument or replacement parts for it.

I've done that with certain pieces of test equipment I own and never regretted it.
10 years down the line, the company goes out of business or drops that line, I'd never get the parts otherwise.

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Post by Mooger5 » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:56 pm

There are a few examples of obsolete electronic instruments being in production today because they´re still on demand. And look at their prices.

The Mellotron is still made by Streetly Electronics http://www.mellotronics.com/

EMS is still making the VCS3, AKS and one of the vocoders http://www.ems-synthi.demon.co.uk/index.html

The Club of the Knobs is manufacturing what look like exact replicas of the old Moog Modulars. I don´t know how exact, though. Hans Zimmer is one of their clients, if it says something. They´re based in Lisbon so one of these days I´ll go check them out. http://www.cluboftheknobs.com/

These companies seem to be depending on niche markets much more than Moog Music themselves...

Now, since the Minimoog was manufactured up until the early 80s and had a few modifications to the original circuitry through time, what would have happen if it was still in production today? I mean, maintaining the same minimal philosofy and sound, not that it would turn like a Voyager...
Obviously the circuits would have received new revisions, not necessarily to improve stability like it happened in the past, but to assure it could be manufactured and serviced with readily available parts...

Also, let´s not forget that there was the much hated british company that took over the Moog name and marketed new minis almost ten years ago. They did it and it´s a fact.
Why they (finally) closed down is anyone´s guess, but thanks to the Internet Archive http://web.archive.org/web/200009181032 ... ers.co.uk/ we can see that, among other things, they had to redesign the oscillator board because the uA726 are no longer available.
SOS reviewed it here http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct98/a ... g204e.html

So, I don´t think it would be such a difficulty to revive the Mini at a reasonable price. Moog Music could make it sound like a vintage one more than anybody.

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Post by ARP » Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:38 pm

Kevin Lightner wrote:
But I'd like to offer that all of us are far more mortal than these synths.
We're gonna die. It's a given.
The instruments and their followers will change over time.
.
:o No one will get my minimoog...i'm getting buried with it.
"Although they heard the music..they didn't understand the tune"

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Post by Kevin Lightner » Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:25 am

Club of the Knobs?
I've seen their stuff and it was put together and worked very poorly.
Oscillators used a CEM 3340 chip, all other modules were different inside as well.
An extremely cheap copy of something originally put together with mil-spec parts.

Mellotrons and new EMS units are very expensive.

The Welsh Minimoog had to make many changes and cost so much to assemble, they went out of business.

Mooger, I think you just answered the question why these units *aren't* made today.
So, I don´t think it would be such a difficulty to revive the Mini at a reasonable price. Moog Music could make it sound like a vintage one more than anybody.
The Ohio and Welsh Minis failed and that was over 10 years ago when parts were more available, prices were lower and far few analogs were on the market.

These two companies failed for very good reasons.
They couldn't make exact duplicates and they cost too much anyways.
No disrespect, but I stand by my opinion- It can't be done to the same degree of quality and/or for a reasonable price.
No slam to you, but wishful thinking just won't get you from point A to point B.
Additionally and no slam to Moog, but Moog is in probably one of the worst positions to make such a synth and to adhere to making it sound vintage.
They don't have any vintage engineers or experience with vintage units.
Bob is gone and he was the last link for Moog Music between old and new. :(

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Post by MC » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:53 am

Orville Gibson has been gone for almost a hundred years and Gibson made a fine guitar for years after his departure.

Fender isn't doing bad either. And Hammond finally got their act together.

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