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Moog support slow and ignorant

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:07 pm
by Simon28
Dear community and dear Moog-team.

Since I cannot solve this issue having with your support, but since there is no survey about support quality I can only make some pressure here.

I got several Moogs and got a Grandmother lately.

1. Every time I had to wait for months until the firmware/software/driver was making it possible to have the synth working as actually promised when I bought it. Moog is actually regularly putting out all products not working fully as promised yet when you buy them. Every time I got to contact support since there is NO ARCHIVE of librarian versions nor firmware.
2. Then support takes days to send you something (instead of one click on a download link) and is complaining to be a small team, having hence no time. Well, then maybe upload whatever you got into an archive on your homepage and you will have more time to address real issues and not just distribute firmware/USB drivers/librarian versions. An accessible archive of previous firmware/software etc. is never a bad thing for your customers.

But besides that general constructive criticism, back to the case:

Latest issue: after an obviously slow (the case goes for over 2 month by now without an estimated solution) and bad support (support apologized some weeks ago) I am merely ignored by now.

It is an issue about the Grandmothers PB-wheel, which turned out to be a firmware error at the end. It was denied at first and handled with little interest. When I had to send back my GM and the new one did the same after the firmware update (and one month of testing around), it came out to be a massive firmware problem your support did not know about and has yet to be fixed by your engineers.

Despite having a faulty product I never got an answer to when this problem might actually be solved and if I can have a notification about the new firmware solution please. Well, no answer whatsoever from your support at all...

Some moments from the mails starting beginning of April:

"... thanks for your quick and detailed reply.

- Just to note: I did a note calibration, when I got the synth
- I followed the procedure of the note calibration again, after that the Pot min, max and centre calibrations, including the master tune.

The results for the MOD wheel: problem solved, as expected. The synth (pots) behave better alltogether.
But the PB wheel still has similar issues, as before - though it came close to how it should be.
"... any news concerning my problem? My time runs out, and if the problem persists I will have to send the grandma back to the distributor."
"..., why am I not getting an answer? Please drop a line at least, if I can hope for a solution."
"Apologies for the delay in response to your emails. ...
... The Grandmother is meant to behave more like a purely analog synth and is thus calibrated as such. This means that it may not always achieve the most accurate settings that a hybrid or digital synth could achieve. The additional MIDI implementation is a nice feature to have, but some discrepancies will be present due to the calibrations and the nature of the synth.
"... unfortunately you only answered one part of the problem. What about the issue, that when I pitch up or down, the scale is shifted down I land a half semitone too low despite the pot calibration? That is something I can not use to pitchben properly beacuse I can HEAR that it is off. ..."
"I am merely disappointed in your support. After 18 days I still did not get all answers though clearly not everything works as it should. Any musician I show the PB problem can hear, that the pitching sounds rather wrong. I invested a lot of time and love, to figure out, what is going on, analyze etc. and to avoid sending back the synth.
I got 3 of your synths and every time I bought one I had to write you and there was always some stuff I could not access right away as a proper customer. (Calibration stuff, unavailable librarian/firmware versions etc.) Every time it took me weeks to get the synth working properly, but this time it is a month already and it still does not work as described in your manual.

1. The GLOBAL SETTINGS /PB range settings are not as described in your manual. It goes from F0-D2 0-12 instead of F0-C2 1-12 st, why?
2. The intervals are consequently just off, at max more than half a semitone, where everybody can hear, it is clearly not an octave pitch for your ear. Why do you not take this as a problem?"
"My apologies once again for the lack of consistency in response. We are a small service team of 5 people with hundreds of customers we assist daily so sometimes we cannot address issues in as timely of a manner as we would like. As for the issues you are encountering with your Grandmother, I do agree that they are less than ideal for a new synth. Some of the issues would be better solved once we release new firmware for the Grandmother, while other issues are just the nature of the beast I'm afraid. If the calibrations did not resolve the pitch wheel issue, and you are still experiencing inconsistencies with the full pitch bend range settings, it is possible that something is wrong with the pitch wheel mechanism. Unfortunately, this would not be something that could be addressed through firmware or calibration, and would require having a tech perform more in depth testing and repair as needed.

The manual could also use some updates and further clarification on specific settings. I can certainly pass your notes and concerns along to our marketing team for future consideration."

One month gone, I had to send back my GM and get a new one. Since the problem turned up again after updating the firmware, I wrote again...

"My apologies for the previous support you received. I've since discussed the pitch bend issue with our engineers and they have confirmed a firmware bug is at fault for the pitch bend range issue. Interesting to know that this issue was not present in previous versions of the firmware. I can certainly pass along v1.0.0 firmware for the Grandmother. I've copied a link to a dropbox page below where you can download the sysex file for the firmware."

thank you for the firmware. Unfortunately it did not fix the problem at all... Now I am really starting to get confused about what is going on.

1. v1.0.0 Sounds like the first one and probably on the units off factory. But if 1.0.0 is also broke, then it seems to be an inherited problem and unlikely, that other versions in between work. However that would mean, it never worked and they don't right off your factory. But I witnessed - and recorded - one working at least... so it seems to happen. So you might have an even older firmware on those. (I suspect that all GMs worked, when I got them, but I always update firmware on my synths but I left one untouched - the one was working, before I updated it too to check, it is actually really the firmware).

2. Or there is the possibility of the firmware 1.0.2 causing some irreversible fault? Or is it the updating process itself? Both quite unlikely, right?

You mentioned, that you don't really know, if it worked in earlier firmware versions? But you do have to have units that are working or worked properly, don't you? Which firmware version do you have on those? Or How do you ship them, with which version? The problem is, I don't know enough background information to be able to narrow down the cause.
I can certainly pass along an older version of the firmware. I've attached v1.0.0 to this email.

(No answer to any of my questions besides getting the same firmware again.)

you sent me 1.0.0 already, that was the one confusing me, since it did not revert the PB-wheel problem that came with the firmware-update.

1. Do you ship them with 1.0.0? Or which version?

2. Can you send me any older version, if one exists? Or just all versions you got?

3. And to sum it up, you can comfort me, that the hardware is fine and a firmware update will help soon, right?
I do have a beta version of the firmware, rev 0.7.7, that I can send you, please see attached. Given that this is a beta version of the firmware, this may not allow your Grandmother to operate fully as intended, other than the pitch bend issue that is already occurring. And yes, I can confirm after testing several Grandmothers that the pitch bend issue is a firmware bug, and not a physical problem with the device itself.

Let me know if you have any additional questions or trouble and I will be glad to help.
"0_7_7 beta also did not revert the problem.
There are more and more people turning out to have the same issue. I could also test one more unit in a shop with out-of-the-box firmware and the PB was working fine.
I will have to wait for a fix at he end I guess. Is it possible to send me a notification, when the fixed firmware is available, please?"

No answer whatsoever for some weeks again. It turned out to be a banal firmware bug - as mostly - instead of being "just the nature of the beast"...

"is that it? No more answers, despite me asking a question in my last e-mail? No more firmwares to test? Not the slightest apology for the product/software being faulty or thanking for my patience that I had and needed to come through and prove that there really is an issue you did not realize? No answer what so ever to inform your loyal customers when actually they will be able to use their product as it is supposed to work? After around two month of hassle and after already apologizing for the previous support quality? And after this happens - not this extreme tough - every time I buy a Moog synth (I already mentioned this fact to you)?

A bad taste in my mouth, when I hear, how great Moog is and how much you are a family and an employee owned company. Somehow that does not go together... I still do not really feel you or your companies empathy at all. Please take care about that for the future besides he new firmware for the grandmother."

No answer of course at all.... does this look like a good and adequate support to anyone? To me this is absolutely unacceptable and offending in this case.

Just a counter example, how OTHER supports close similar cases like this:

"... I'm deeply sorry that we could not sort out those issues and would like to apologies for the time consuming tests and troubleshooting,
Please consider that I remain at your entire service if you came to need any further help"

Re: Moog support slow and ignorant

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:08 pm
by Markyboard
Hey Simon-

I feel for you and have no doubt your complaints are real and justified. But let's start with your thread title. specifically the word "ignorant". I can assure you Moog and it's employees are far from ignorant and know EXACTLY what's going on and the issues that are out there with each of their products. It's not difficult to envision a day in the life working at Moog; limited resources, enormous pressure to generate revenue on a monthly basis, priorities that best ensure their doors won't close because of default/bankruptcy, parts procurement and cost issues and of course the relentless competition to name just a few.

I don't have any specific facts but I've been around in the tech world long enough to know that these issues confront every small business. So what would you have them do, pull 1 of their maybe 2 software/firmware "experts" to stop what he/she's doing and devote all their time to fixing these problems? Of course as the person affected the answer might be a resounding YES! But at the risk/expense of DOORS CLOSED? So maybe you have to continue to settle for the "luxurious" 4 hours/week allocation (for example) of his/her time spent on not just the Grandmother but also the One and any other actively selling products with bugs. Keep in mind working on these doesn't bring in more revenue other than the potential sale of a few extra units to people that are sitting on the sidelines waiting for this stuff to be fixed.

These guys aren't ignorant, they are passionate about their products and good people. Trust me, I've met more than a few. But to continue to do what they do they have to care about their company business-wise. Part of that is projecting a positive outlook so don't expect any doom and gloom type response from Moog - it's bad for business. I know it sucks for you and anyone else waiting for a fix. Btw I'm one of those sitting on the sidelines, or will be with the Matriarch. All the "damage control" live videos and other tactics are understandable, but won't get me pulling my wallet out anytime soon.

I hope this gives you some perspective.

Re: Moog support slow and ignorant

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:37 pm
by Simon28
Hey Marky, I do love Moog products and I do understand the pressure. If you deliver products regularly with major (firmware) issues though - well, be humble about it. I post this after years of experience with Moog synths and support.

My title targets Moog SUPPORT in this case.

They have been (admittedly) SLOW, because it took me two months and 3 Grandmothers so far to still have the problem. The only thing is now, that they admitted the cause being a firmware bug by now. It felt more like a fight against them than an understanding and curios searching for the cause together.

And IGNORANT, because it was hard to get to a point that they take a closer look at the case, since they handled it as normal and ignored it as much as possible (despite me delivering enough data initially to see the behavior is off) and mostly because at the end as you can see, I asked a question but never got any answer back for the last 2 weeks by now. If that is not ignoring me, thus being ignorant, I do not know what is, you are right.

So what do I want?
A polite and adequate answer preferably with an approximation, when this might be fixed. Maybe thanking for my research and time and a Moog sticker, since fix might take half a year or so. Anything besides being ignored.

Why do I post this here? Maybe they do not realize at Moog that it happens this way... or they do not realize, how important good support is. I am also long in the scene and as I already pasted an example, they are some good examples. Heck, some even write empathic and curios mails long AFTER I had to abandon their product, because they are curios and solution oriented.

About the other argumentation of marketing strategies I would say nothing right now since it goes deep and there are many theories. But every marketing and sales person knows that: nothing impacts more on humans than positive interaction with other humans. If you sell some products to people, you do not really bind them loyally to your brand. If you give them good troubleshooting or support - even if the product is faulty - they will have a positive memory attached to your brand.

Re: Moog support slow and ignorant

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:22 am
by Kirneh Ness
Simon28 wrote:If that is not ignoring me, thus being ignorant, I do not know what is
Don't wanna split hairs, but at least some could disagree to this. I understand the words as follows:

Ignore (verb):
To intentionally not listen or give attention to

Ignorance (noun):
Lack of knowledge, understanding, or information about something

Ignorant (adjective):
Not having enough knowledge, understanding, or information about something

Irrespective of that, I understand you frustrations!

Re: Moog support slow and ignorant

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:02 pm
by Simon28
I could still say, that Moog support had a lack of knowledge and did not even ask their engineers about the firmware bug, before I insisted that there is actually one. Or that they - as they wrote - till this day do not know since which version it is in there. So ignorant is still applicable for the support then.

But I would rather discuss here how it is okay to treat customers like this...

Re: Moog support slow and ignorant

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:02 am
by Station2station
I'm going to assume that English is not your first language, because frankly your posts are difficult to read. I had to go over your sentences slowly, reading them aloud, to figure out what you were saying. You use commas where we don't typically use commas, and you speak in an odd form of prose which tends to be run-on. You use filler words such as "thus" and "Well" too often and unnecessarily.

This may be part of the problem. Below is one of your sentences which makes no sense:

Example: "2. Then support takes days (instead of one click on a download link) is complaining to be a small team, hence no time. "

In addition the word "Ignorant" has a negative connotation. If I call someone a cocktail party ignorant, I should expect a verbal altercation. We just don't do that. It's sure fire way to get support to ignore you. And that's not ignorance; that's annoyance.

Re: Moog support slow and ignorant

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:39 am
by Simon28
Dear Station2station,

I think my reason to complain about a product not working properly is legit. I post a thread here about how the problem got ignored at first, then me - which was definitely not by telling moog support: hey, you are ignorant, can you help me please?

Of course I call them ignorant by now since I am complaining after I gave up receiving an answer or a solution anyways.

They were slow, then they did hard to admit that there is a failure/bug, and after all that they started to ignore me, though I just ask if they can inform me about when or if a new firmware is getting released solving this issue for ALL GM users btw. not just me.

Now if you imply that you get ignored by Moog, if you are a foreigner and English is not your first language... since in my case I use commas on wrong positions and some filler words you don't like - just funny.

I might make mistakes, but I am sure you do too. And don`t tell me, you don't understand what I am writing all together despite some mistakes. When I look at posts of the others just in this thread, I can also find plenty... a good way to distract from the real issue.

It is easy to pick on me for mistakes. I also could offend you easily... but I won't. And I really really do not understand, why you do this to me.
Why do YOU feel offended about me having trouble with Moog support?

Re: Moog support slow and ignorant

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:41 pm
by Simon28
Just to make it clear for anyone who would like to start picking on me or my English, since he feels for Moog:

The product IS faulty and does not fulfill a major feature. There is no working solution in sight - or at least I do not get information about it. So I can still send back my GM as a guarantee case. Luckily I am protected by law not to get completely ignored in cases like this. (After buying something that does not do what is promised.)

Why I post this thread is because I do care about my Moog synths and the Moog brand. I love them all and I want Moog to build more good synths my whole life long. And I want to buy them all.

I even wrote actually to support, how much I love the synths and that I am waiting for the Matriarch. I really tried to complain as little as possible in my emails until my last one maybe - after weeks of silence. I even gave up already on a fix and just wanted to know if they got any more firmware to try around or if they can inform me, when a firmware comes out that is solving this issue. Is that really that much to ask for? At least an answer, like "sorry, no"?

I already got several Moogs as I wrote and out of experience - since I do not like to complain but wanna rather make music - I try to avoid their support already as much as possible. An archive of plug-ins, drivers, firmwares for each product would help there. But how can I avoid them, if they got a mayor bug on their device though it is on the market for over a year by now?

If I do not care about Moog anymore I will just send my GM back and ignore them forever. If it goes on like this, maybe I will... since of course I still got no reaction from Moog.

Re: Moog support slow and ignorant

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:45 pm
by bichuelo
The thing is, you are being disrespectful and plain rude with Moog support by telling them they are illiterate and incapable of doing their job.

Don't insult them, and you will get a reply

If English isn't your first language please consider using a dictionary and check the meaning of every word.

If you tell someone he is ignorant, is the same thing as telling he is stupid, or an asshole. That is completely different from being ignored: ... stupidity/

Re: Moog support slow and ignorant

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:10 pm
by bichuelo
Actually, after calling someone ignorant, you owe him/her an apology. It is very rude and nasty

Re: Moog support slow and ignorant

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:49 pm
by Simon28
From this link you guys gave me: ... stupidity/
1. Ignorance implies a lack of awareness, while stupidity implies the inability to understand.

2. Ignorance can be removed by the acquisition of knowledge, while a stupid person is intrinsically so, and therefore difficult to reform.

3. Ignorance is caused by the circumstances of one’s life, whereas stupidity is due to an attitude problem or mental deficiency in the person concerned.

4. While the reasons of ignorance are universally the same, stupidity is often defined by one’s perception of what comprises stupidity.

Reading this I do not see how it is offending to call someone ignorant, especially if it is actually true. Actually I could add "ignoring" too.
... Moog support had a lack of knowledge and did not even ask their engineers about the firmware bug, before I insisted that there is actually one. Or that they - as they wrote - till this day do not know since which version it is in there. So ignorant is still applicable for the support then.
If you suggest me to use a dictionary, I might suggest you to read the case carefully before you think that a word is being used without a reason.
If you have to argue with me about the title, then prove to me that they are actually not ignorant in my case. Or ask details, if it does not seem to be the case to you. But only since you feel offended for Moog and you have to be the savior of their honor... you just have to pick on me. Kick someone already on the floor shouting for help. Nice move.

It is very rude and disrespectful to ignore someone, especially a customer with a legit complain. Do you guys think they apologized twice already before aborting communication, because everything went just fine?

Why are you not complaining about that? That is all just okay with you? You do not see any reason, why I might be a bit emotional about it? You think that one word is too much and completely ignore the cause, why I write this thread?

I am offended by Moog. If they feel offended, they should at least pretend to care about their customers and it might not happen. This actually happened to me already with Moog it was just not that important to me since the missing features were not important to me. I also wrote that. This all is also very very unprofessional behavior. Getting ignored by a customer support never happened to me - not even with worst Phone companies or similar.