(SOLVED)Memorymoog issue, no output, LEDs frozen

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whinylittlerunt
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Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:30 pm

(SOLVED)Memorymoog issue, no output, LEDs frozen

Post by whinylittlerunt » Sun May 12, 2019 2:22 pm

Apologies for starting a second thread, but I needed to focus on the actual issuer. I'm in a bit of a fix - I'm hoping it's something simple but I need some guidance.

Back story: Memorymoog purchased 2 weeks ago, with the understanding it would crash after 2-3 minutes. I pulled the power supply and one of the first things I did was remove the power transistor sockets and solder some extensions on so I could mount them right on the board. Then I happened to notice a cracked solder joint under the shunt resistor on the 15v rail (I had been noticing that my 5v measurement was no good and would keep dropping in voltage until the synth eventually locked up). Fixed that and everything seemed to be in business. I then re-capped the supply and replaced the trimpots, and dialed back in the voltages.

So I started doing the full calibration. I wasn't 5 minutes in when I was re-checking the supply voltages on the DMUX board and ZAP I slipped with my DVM lead and the synth just started freaking out, doing the long, THX-sounding sweep until I shut it off. Turning it back on presented the same issue so I got worried and spent some time to pull the DMUX board and inspect it. While I had it out I re-capped that board also. I got it back in, and with some mixups and connectors in the wrong sockets (apparently there are multiple connectors in the same row with the same number with only 1 used) I fired it back up and I get just the faintest sound of the synth sweeping again but all the controls are frozen. No key response, no audio. I checked my supply voltages and voltages at a couple of the chips in the area where I dropped my lead... all look good. I do have a shunt resistor and transistor about 2 inches away from where I slipped that are getting wicked hot... the voltages are measuring out correctly on them but I don't think they should be that hot. I also pulled and reseated the processor just for giggles.

I'm so upset; all I was going to do was calibrate everything and I slipped on the first shot... anyone out there ever had a similar experience or know what I may have damaged? The fact that it's locking up again and it's not the power supply (assuming), leads me to believe it's a CMOS chip or something at the digital side...
Last edited by whinylittlerunt on Fri May 17, 2019 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Markyboard
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Re: Memorymoog issue, no output, LEDs frozen after short/sli

Post by Markyboard » Sun May 12, 2019 4:44 pm

Hey there WLR- been a while.

Lets start with the Power Supply (PS). You stated you removed the power transistors and and mounted them to the board? Do you mean the TIP41s? These were originally mounted on the PS board as I recall and relocated to the heat sync plate because they get too damn HOT! I was one of the early guinea pigs of this design flaw and well - when those things over heat watch out and pray you don't have your amp output turned up much past 2!!!!

Please identify by board and part designator which transistor and shunt resistor are getting wicked hot.

Your probe slipping may have shorted something and scrambled the CPU. There is a reset on the digital board by grounding a test pin. Check the service manual and schematic and see if that helps.

As to plugging into the "wrong" connector I believe those (2 sets of 3 iirc) are duplicates and should not have affected anything provided you did not reverse the connection.

I'm not the scolding type (I know a few here that are) but I would caution you to not guess at troubleshooting - especially on this board which is tempramental to begin with. No need to recap or reseat anything else at this point other than if you suspect a cables. The good news is just about any Memorymoog can be fixed if you have the time, knowledge and experience. Just about all the parts are available and much less expensive now with the reissue CEMs in abundance.

whinylittlerunt
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:30 pm

Re: Memorymoog issue, no output, LEDs frozen after short/sli

Post by whinylittlerunt » Sun May 12, 2019 5:52 pm

Hey MB!

Well I read your overhaul thread in triplicate just trying to get an idea where I’d stand getting this thing worked out.

So on the DMUX board is where I was getting the hot resistor and transistor. I first identified it with my thermal gun and saw that area of the board was over 115 degrees! Ouch... the parts happen to fall right above where I shorted. It doesn’t seem normal but my voltages are all perfect at the rest points as well as on those hot parts. I believe it’s R172 and the adjacent transistors, Q13-14. I also checked the voltages at the pins of the op amps just prior to those parts- I also scoped them but couldn’t tell if it was anything flaky.

I didn’t know about the reset function, that’s what I was praying someone would tell me lol! Maybe I scrambled the CPU or a ram chip... I’ll get right on that tonight and see if that changes anything.

I really don’t plan on doing any kind of recap job on this... I did do the 4 on the DMUX board while I had it out (with the hopes of never having to take it out again). I was all set to begin calibration and then this happened! The power supply recap just seemed smart while I had it out- and yes, the sockets I’m talking about are the power transistors- they have them mounted in these stupid plastic sockets that when you flex the power supply they short out and lose connection. I re-pasted the trannies to the heatsink and used new mica pads between, then I soldered on extensions to mount them directly into the board so, no more flex.

I had been in good shape with the power supply up until last night! I’ll keep you posted- and thanks for responding! I know you certainly had your fair share!

Markyboard
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Location: Springfield, VA

Re: Memorymoog issue, no output, LEDs frozen after short/sli

Post by Markyboard » Sun May 12, 2019 7:28 pm

Ooh - regarding R172 and Q13 - that's what generates the -7.5V,, i.e. the voltage I totally missed when I had intermittent DEAD OSC running the autotune. Kicked my ass for weeks if not better than a month because I totally missed this secondary voltage being used on the VCs. Fortunately the doctors say I should be fine now... as long as I don't get excited. :D

Anyway if you're getting +/-7.5 out of that circuit it's probably fine. 2W resistor on the -7.5V is there because that line pulls some juice. I'd expect it to be hot.

Btw I now understand your power transistor mod - you reminded me those were originally socketed and then they released an ECR to mount directly to the back plate - good job.

Don't give up - we'll get her singing.

whinylittlerunt
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Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:30 pm

Re: Memorymoog issue, no output, LEDs frozen after short/sli

Post by whinylittlerunt » Sun May 12, 2019 8:31 pm

Image

That's what I did with the power supply transistors... see the red wire tubing over the solder joints...

**NOTE: please ignore that radial 1000uf cap! I thought I had axials and turned out I didn't so I didn't order them :oops: so I'll swap it out before this is all done...**

whinylittlerunt
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Re: Memorymoog issue, no output, LEDs frozen after short/sli

Post by whinylittlerunt » Sun May 12, 2019 9:28 pm

I found the test point (P49, empty 3-pin connector) but am I supposed to short all 3 together? It doesn't really indicate any of this in the manual.. I found it by looking at the schematic (based on the one empty connector I saw)

EDIT- Ok, I ground the 3 leads together just figuring what else would I lose - and it went silent on boot-up, rate LED flashed a few times... but that was it. Didn't solve my issue - I'm still sitting at a frozen puppy...

Here's what I actually did to it, figured I'd make a quick video:

https://youtu.be/gCsGXUOQ_iI

Markyboard
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Re: Memorymoog issue, no output, LEDs frozen after short/sli

Post by Markyboard » Mon May 13, 2019 8:29 am

Hey WLR ( and please remind me your name)-

Before we proceed any further do you have the schematics, not just the board layouts? T.P. Reset circuit is clearly shown on the left side of the digital board with each pin of that P49 connector. The reason I'm asking is it will be necessary that you are familiar with getting around schematics and tracing signal paths. If not that's fine, but I'll probably suggest a different course of action. Btw turns out shorting all 3 pins was just fine. The next step will be to see if there's clocking activity on some of these DMUX busses. These are difficult to see on cheap scopes ( like I have) but we're not looking for any real detail, just enough to know that the processor is cycling through its routine.

As I understand it this behavior is new since you first opened it so I'm fairly confident the digital board is still functioning. But this is the logical place to start. Once we establish this it's back to the DMUX board where I really believe the problem lies.

whinylittlerunt
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Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:30 pm

Re: Memorymoog issue, no output, LEDs frozen after short/sli

Post by whinylittlerunt » Mon May 13, 2019 10:22 am

My first name is Mike :)

Ok - so, yes, I do have the schematics and have been using them so far to try tracing out my issue. For as 'noob' a tech as I make myself out to be, that's purely based on knowledge of complicated digital electronics. I do have fairly good equipment, in fact I just bought a new Siglent scope (but I have an older Tek analog scope as well). My soldering and de-soldering tools are all professional, and I'm very confident with doing that type of work. So, barring that:

I already scoped different points on the CPU (clock seems to be working)

**Just a quick digression, I recently had a similar issue with my Prophet T8 and I had swapped out CPUs and reseated / shorted ram chips and anything I could do to get it to boot properly but in the end it wound up in the hands of someone more confident than I am. Hoping this isn't the case here**

And yes, this is totally new behavior since after fixing the initial power supply issue the synth worked perfectly fine. All I did was slip my positive test lead while I was re-measuring voltages on the DMUX board caps (as per the manual) and it sparked and made the sound you hear when you now turn it on (as in the video).

Markyboard
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Location: Springfield, VA

Re: Memorymoog issue, no output, LEDs frozen after short/sli

Post by Markyboard » Mon May 13, 2019 11:36 am

Got it Mike - just wanted to make sure I wasn't get you into trouble here.

Now I'm thinking maybe its best to start with the DMUX board. I would probe the DAC and a few of the 4051 muxes to the right. These are what ultimately control the front panel functions and their associated read-outs. Since everything is "locked up" check to see that the DAC output shows pulse train activity as well and you see changes on the various address signals on the 4051s (they cycle in the 100khz range iirc).If you're not seeing anything at the I/O pin of the 4051s then look at the the DAC supporting circuitry. It the address lines or Inhibit line show no activity then it's back to the digital board.

Btw I'm OK continuing this here if no one objects but if you prefer you can pm me and we can even do some of this over the phone.

whinylittlerunt
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Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:30 pm

Re: Memorymoog issue, no output, LEDs frozen after short/sli

Post by whinylittlerunt » Mon May 13, 2019 2:35 pm

MB,
I'm good with troubleshooting here unless anyone else is opposed. Someone may find it and learn something someday.

I'll take a look at the DAC and the surrounding components along with the 4051s... fortunately these ICs are pretty common.

whinylittlerunt
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:30 pm

Re: Memorymoog issue, no output, LEDs frozen after short/sli

Post by whinylittlerunt » Mon May 13, 2019 9:17 pm

I probed around on the DAC and the surrounding circuitry. I'm not getting a super good reading on the scope but as I increased the V I could see the DAC was moving in a continuous way, so I'll presume that it's good...
Interestingly, I checked the voltage at pin 16 on the 4051s and it's supposed to be 5v. I'm pulling 15 from just about all of them (I checked most of them and then assumed the problem was downstream...)

At the 3 caps on the DMUX board I am getting correct voltage from the power supply.

Also, what was weird was when I pulled out a random op-amp (let's say I pulled U5) the synth booted, obviously no audio but the front panel functioned briefly and then locked up again. Like I could hit autotune.

And if I swap the chip (U5- 351) with something else comparable, or another 351... that ugly screechy sweep that starts high and then goes low when I power it on goes the opposite direction.

Markyboard
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Re: Memorymoog issue, no output, LEDs frozen after short/sli

Post by Markyboard » Tue May 14, 2019 12:33 pm

That's a typo on the 4051s supply voltage - 15V is correct. There are many typos on the schematics.

Take a look at the MUX BUS signal coming from the front panel and the Approx Compare signal. That should have activity although if you turn all knobs to 0 it will be significantly reduced.

Also does pushing the autotune button do anything or is it locked as well?

whinylittlerunt
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Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:30 pm

Re: Memorymoog issue, no output, LEDs frozen after short/sli

Post by whinylittlerunt » Tue May 14, 2019 1:07 pm

Markyboard wrote:Also does pushing the autotune button do anything or is it locked as well?


Locked up as well. Unless I remove U5, then I can hit it and it works for about 10 seconds until it all locks up again.

zaiusz
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Re: Memorymoog issue, no output, LEDs frozen after short/sli

Post by zaiusz » Tue May 14, 2019 2:03 pm

Wait, the 4051's are supposed to be -15v? Are you sure? If you're reading -15v on all 4051's it sounds like S131 is plugged in backwards....

I remember working on a MM once that had a dead -15 rail, and the only thing it affected was the voices. The digital side all worked..

Markyboard
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Re: Memorymoog issue, no output, LEDs frozen after short/sli

Post by Markyboard » Tue May 14, 2019 4:23 pm

Apologies for the confusion, that was meant as a dash, not a negative sign. +15V supply is correct.

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