Sub 37 vs Model D

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stiiiiiiive
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Re: Sub 37 vs Model D

Post by stiiiiiiive » Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:08 pm

Indeed, there isn't sound in the vacuum, actually. Sound is the vibration of some particles so you actually need a material environment, albeit our atmosphere, the ocean, a piece of wood etc.

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Re: Sub 37 vs Model D

Post by noddyspuncture » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:35 pm

[quote="stiiiiiiive"]Indeed, there isn't sound in the vacuum, actually./quote]

It's dead quiet inside our Kirby vacuum cleaner.... :D

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Re: Sub 37 vs Model D

Post by Stevie Ray » Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:23 pm

franklinstower wrote:
Stevie Ray wrote:Unless you have money to burn, stick with the Sub-37 which delivers a hell of a punch for the price. The new D is for retro-gear fetishists I think.

I don't know man. I like that there are no digital parts to this thing (outside the keyboard). The other synth that is attractive to me is the Voyager old school. Something about the simplicity in addition to the reputed sound quality is just so alluring to me.
I have a Voyager Old School and love it. I also have the Sub-37. I know what you mean about the 'purity' of an all-analogue synth like the VOS, but the VOS and the '37 can actually sound fairly similar in many cases. The '37 offers more modern conveniences.

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Re: Sub 37 vs Model D

Post by sub guy » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:27 am

^^^^^

I've got the sub 37 and two mother 32's. Honestly the sub 37 sounds amazing and I have heard that it is a pretty dark synth but don't really have much to compare that with. Whats your take on the sub vs the voyager? In your opinion is there a difference in sound quality between the two and what would you say that is?

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Re: Sub 37 vs Model D

Post by Stevie Ray » Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:38 pm

Voyager vs Sub-37 in terms of audio quality? That's a difficult question to answer - it's all in the ear of the beholder.

I have a Voyager Old School, a Sub-37 and three Mother 32s in a Eurorack setup. They all sound great to my ears, and although they have different characters, I can make patches that sound pretty much identical on all of them (the Sub-37 only has two VCOs). It's only when you explore the differences, rather than the similarities (i.e. the typical Moog Sound) in these instruments that you begin too really appreciate them IMHO.

The difference between them for me is mostly how I use them. The VOS is best for playability (bigger keyboard, bigger knobs). The Sub-37 for advanced modern features (great sequencer, patch memory, looping envelopes etc.), the 3 x Mother 32s for creating sounds that are simply not possible on the other two instruments.

If I had to gig just one, it would the Sub-37. If I'm experimenting with new sounds in my own little studio, the 3 Mothers offer greater potential. If I just want to sit down and work on melodic lines, create a conventional lead part, or just play to relax and enjoy myself, I'd choose the Voyager Old School every time. The VOS is kind-of instinctive to me, like the Model D, I don't have to think too hard to get the exact sound I want.

To me, sonically the VOS sounds more full and rounded, the Sub-37 sounds a little more bright and aggressive (not sure how you got the 'dark' impression) and more like the D, the Mothers (in multiples) give much greater sonic flexibility but you need to know what you're doing patch-wise.

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Re: Sub 37 vs Model D

Post by sub guy » Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:12 pm

^^^^^^
Thanks for the thorough reply. I was listening to a bunch of model d videos yesterday on youtube. I will probably have to get one just based on those videos. Pretty amazing sound. I'm not new to synthesis anymore but your post made me realize how much I still have to learn mostly considering the Mother 32. I've got two of them and have no idea what I'm doing. I just use them for drones basically. Time has been a factor in getting to know those synths and the layout is far less intuitive than the sub 37 for me to use. The sub is laid out in a way that makes understanding how it works really obvious.

As far as the sub 37 being dark that is the often heard word on many forums. I play bass with it in my band and it has given a really dark mood and feel to the whole band (we like that) Its a bass heavy band. It does seem darker than the Mothers to me but I suppose a lot has to do with how and what you are using them for. No doubt the sub 37 can sound really aggressive but I almost never go there with it.

All in all though I am thinking the model d is a must have and that might turn the sub 37 into a part time drone machine and then I am not sure I will need the two mothers anymore....

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Re: Sub 37 vs Model D

Post by EricK » Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:30 pm

Sub Guy,
You will find that a knob-per-function interface synth like the Voyager or Model D is going to be very straight-forward with helping you learn synthesis. The less under-the-hood functions there are, the easier it is.

Modulars are even better teaching tools because you have to physically route every signal yourself, whereas on the Model D they are already pretty much hard-wired. Those aren't always the best options for everyone though.

No doubt, synthesis has a difficult learning curve, and the best place to start is with the nomenclature.

Try not to get discouraged though, because you might find that you listen to your own sounds differently than you listen to other people's sounds. You might find out that the stuff you are doing sounds better than you think. The reasoning behind this is that you hear your sound take shape from the totality of knob-turns that it took to get there. So you know that one slight adjustment changes the sound in a way, and a slight adjustment somewhere else adds a texture that is totally different and begins to take the sound off in another direction. It is easy to get caught up in this.
It is very similar to editing photography. You can spend a long time adjusting every little color setting that you end up having cycled through several different iterations of "perfect" half a dozen times. But when you see another's photo, you see only the end result. So it's easy to listen to your own sounds with a different set of ears than you hear someone else's.

Eric
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Re: Sub 37 vs Model D

Post by sub guy » Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:50 pm

EricK wrote:Sub Guy,
You will find that a knob-per-function interface synth like the Voyager or Model D is going to be very straight-forward with helping you learn synthesis. The less under-the-hood functions there are, the easier it is.

Modulars are even better teaching tools because you have to physically route every signal yourself, whereas on the Model D they are already pretty much hard-wired. Those aren't always the best options for everyone though.

No doubt, synthesis has a difficult learning curve, and the best place to start is with the nomenclature.

Try not to get discouraged though, because you might find that you listen to your own sounds differently than you listen to other people's sounds. You might find out that the stuff you are doing sounds better than you think. The reasoning behind this is that you hear your sound take shape from the totality of knob-turns that it took to get there. So you know that one slight adjustment changes the sound in a way, and a slight adjustment somewhere else adds a texture that is totally different and begins to take the sound off in another direction. It is easy to get caught up in this.
It is very similar to editing photography. You can spend a long time adjusting every little color setting that you end up having cycled through several different iterations of "perfect" half a dozen times. But when you see another's photo, you see only the end result. So it's easy to listen to your own sounds with a different set of ears than you hear someone else's.

Eric


I don't get discouraged at all about my capabilities. I have a lot of patience and also just really enjoy the process of getting better at synthesis. But When i hear some people talk about what they are doing and listen to the music they make I can see how far I have to go. On the other hand simplicity is my strong suit.... am really looking forward to getting the model d and hope its not redundant after already having the sub 37.

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Re: Sub 37 vs Model D

Post by EricK » Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:33 pm

The Model D is very limited though. You shouldn't find a lot of redundancies between the two synths.
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Re: Sub 37 vs Model D

Post by Stevie Ray » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:36 pm

sub guy wrote: I don't get discouraged at all about my capabilities. I have a lot of patience and also just really enjoy the process of getting better at synthesis. But When i hear some people talk about what they are doing and listen to the music they make I can see how far I have to go. On the other hand simplicity is my strong suit.... am really looking forward to getting the model d and hope its not redundant after already having the sub 37.
If you're essentially a bass guy then I certainly wouldn't discourage you in getting a Model D - it has a legendary, powerful bass sound. Probably the best bass sound of all Moogs, except for the modulars. I don't blame you for finding the Mothers a bit overwhelming - they offer a vast array of possibilities but you need to know your stuff regarding the classic subtractive synthesis model to get the best out of them. I don't blame you if you don't want to bury your nose in theoretical tracts or waste time watching dubious YouTube videos that claim to teach the theory.

It would be a tragedy to relegate your Sub-37 to a 'drone machine' - it's a fantastic synthesiser that deserves much more.

My suggestion to you:- sell the Mothers, and the Sub-37 and get the new Model D - don't compromise, otherwise you will never be happy.

I'll just add one more thing... before you consider getting rid of your Sub-37, make sure you play the new Model D for comparison.

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Re: Sub 37 vs Model D

Post by sub guy » Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:02 pm

Stevie Ray wrote:
sub guy wrote: I don't get discouraged at all about my capabilities. I have a lot of patience and also just really enjoy the process of getting better at synthesis. But When i hear some people talk about what they are doing and listen to the music they make I can see how far I have to go. On the other hand simplicity is my strong suit.... am really looking forward to getting the model d and hope its not redundant after already having the sub 37.
If you're essentially a bass guy then I certainly wouldn't discourage you in getting a Model D - it has a legendary, powerful bass sound. Probably the best bass sound of all Moogs, except for the modulars. I don't blame you for finding the Mothers a bit overwhelming - they offer a vast array of possibilities but you need to know your stuff regarding the classic subtractive synthesis model to get the best out of them. I don't blame you if you don't want to bury your nose in theoretical tracts or waste time watching dubious YouTube videos that claim to teach the theory.

It would be a tragedy to relegate your Sub-37 to a 'drone machine' - it's a fantastic synthesiser that deserves much more.

My suggestion to you:- sell the Mothers, and the Sub-37 and get the new Model D - don't compromise, otherwise you will never be happy.

Well I am getting the model d for sure. Its already on pre order with sweetwater. Ill have to wait a good while to decide what to do with the rest of my rig though. We use a lot of drones in our band and usually I use the Mothers for that and then play some higher pitch keys during the bass drones. I am primarily a bass player though as I said. It would be hard to get rid of the sub 37 though till I hear what the model d can do. The paraphonic capability of the sub is actually quite powerful and mystical sounding and there are some incredible tones you can get out of the sub 37 overall.

One concern I have about switching to the model D is that I have found that the 18 pole option on the Sub 37 filter is what I am using ALL the time for my sub 37 bass and I know the model D does not have that option. Also I am using feedback turned up about halfway and also multidrive about a third of the way in my standard bass sounds. I like those settings and then roll the filter cutoff back to just above 320hz as a beginning point. Also for songs and not jamming I use oscillator reset button and two oscillators. That way there is some grit and fatness to the sound but its just barely there due to the filter cutoff. I haven't been able to find a bass setting that is as nice when the filter is set to 20 pole and no overdrive or feedback. The D cannot do any of this except feedback but then only at full power rather than being able to adjust it. So I will only be able to tell if the reported aliveness of the sound of a Model D can be better than the sub 37 by having one for a while. I may end up selling the D for all I know.....

Ill just have to wait and see-- it may be that I should keep all of it and just use it at my preference.

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Re: Sub 37 vs Model D

Post by Stevie Ray » Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:43 pm

sub guy wrote:
Stevie Ray wrote:
sub guy wrote: I don't get discouraged at all about my capabilities. I have a lot of patience and also just really enjoy the process of getting better at synthesis. But When i hear some people talk about what they are doing and listen to the music they make I can see how far I have to go. On the other hand simplicity is my strong suit.... am really looking forward to getting the model d and hope its not redundant after already having the sub 37.
If you're essentially a bass guy then I certainly wouldn't discourage you in getting a Model D - it has a legendary, powerful bass sound. Probably the best bass sound of all Moogs, except for the modulars. I don't blame you for finding the Mothers a bit overwhelming - they offer a vast array of possibilities but you need to know your stuff regarding the classic subtractive synthesis model to get the best out of them. I don't blame you if you don't want to bury your nose in theoretical tracts or waste time watching dubious YouTube videos that claim to teach the theory.

It would be a tragedy to relegate your Sub-37 to a 'drone machine' - it's a fantastic synthesiser that deserves much more.

My suggestion to you:- sell the Mothers, and the Sub-37 and get the new Model D - don't compromise, otherwise you will never be happy.

Well I am getting the model d for sure. Its already on pre order with sweetwater. Ill have to wait a good while to decide what to do with the rest of my rig though. We use a lot of drones in our band and usually I use the Mothers for that and then play some higher pitch keys during the bass drones. I am primarily a bass player though as I said. It would be hard to get rid of the sub 37 though till I hear what the model d can do. The paraphonic capability of the sub is actually quite powerful and mystical sounding and there are some incredible tones you can get out of the sub 37 overall.

One concern I have about switching to the model D is that I have found that the 18 pole option on the Sub 37 filter is what I am using ALL the time for my sub 37 bass and I know the model D does not have that option. Also I am using feedback turned up about halfway and also multidrive about a third of the way in my standard bass sounds. I like those settings and then roll the filter cutoff back to just above 320hz as a beginning point. Also for songs and not jamming I use oscillator reset button and two oscillators. That way there is some grit and fatness to the sound but its just barely there due to the filter cutoff. I haven't been able to find a bass setting that is as nice when the filter is set to 20 pole and no overdrive or feedback. The D cannot do any of this except feedback but then only at full power rather than being able to adjust it. So I will only be able to tell if the reported aliveness of the sound of a Model D can be better than the sub 37 by having one for a while. I may end up selling the D for all I know.....

Ill just have to wait and see-- it may be that I should keep all of it and just use it at my preference.
And there, in a nutshell, you have the great flexibility of the Sub-37 over the very limited Model D.

The D (even the new one) is a fairly primitive synthesiser. I sounds fantastic (which is of course the main thing) but it is severely limited in its sonic pallet and sound-creation capabilities. I've owned and restored several classic Model Ds, and have no great hankering to own another.

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Re: Sub 37 vs Model D

Post by sub guy » Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:19 pm

^^^^^^

Yep and only owning one for a while will answer whether or not the Model D will work out or not for the way I play. I THINK I can hear that special magic in the model D demos i've heard and that may be a very different world when compared to the sub 37. Ill know soon enough. If the pole selection and overdrive are not a problem and the bass is there for me and my band then the rest of the limitations won't matter because I really do use the sub to play bass and do SOME trippy stuff also -- but I can use the model D for all of those purposes.

Stevie Ray
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Re: Sub 37 vs Model D

Post by Stevie Ray » Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:28 pm

sub guy wrote:^^^^^^

Yep and only owning one for a while will answer whether or not the Model D will work out or not for the way I play. I THINK I can hear that special magic in the model D demos i've heard and that may be a very different world when compared to the sub 37. Ill know soon enough. If the pole selection and overdrive are not a problem and the bass is there for me and my band then the rest of the limitations won't matter because I really do use the sub to play bass and do SOME trippy stuff also -- but I can use the model D for all of those purposes.
You sound pretty convinced already, so just go for it. I'm sure you won't be disappointed.

Best of luck.

Steve

Stevie Ray
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Re: Sub 37 vs Model D

Post by Stevie Ray » Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:16 pm

sub guy wrote:^^^^^^

Yep and only owning one for a while will answer whether or not the Model D will work out or not for the way I play. I THINK I can hear that special magic in the model D demos i've heard and that may be a very different world when compared to the sub 37. Ill know soon enough. If the pole selection and overdrive are not a problem and the bass is there for me and my band then the rest of the limitations won't matter because I really do use the sub to play bass and do SOME trippy stuff also -- but I can use the model D for all of those purposes.
Let us know how it works out for you. I'm really keen to know if you think the new D is better (sonically) than the 37.

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