New Model D ?

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EricK
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Re: New Model D ?

Post by EricK » Sat May 21, 2016 9:40 pm

THe NY company that introduced the products that defined the brand is totally separate from the NC company.
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Stevie Ray
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Re: New Model D ?

Post by Stevie Ray » Sat May 21, 2016 10:23 pm

Yes. But Bob was still in charge when the move was made. Not sure what point you're making.

EricK
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Re: New Model D ?

Post by EricK » Sat May 21, 2016 11:11 pm

Stevie Ray wrote:Yes. But Bob was still in charge when the move was made. Not sure what point you're making.


Totally separate entity from the company which had its assets liquidated in the 90s. They aren't reintroducing anything as much as they are making near-exact clones. A lot of people don't understand this is all I'm saying.
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Re: New Model D ?

Post by SteveW » Sun May 22, 2016 12:59 pm

If only I had the room! Instant buy.

Not because I'm chasing the past, or tired of my Voyager, but simply because Moog Music builds lovely, high quality instruments with wonderful tone that are pure pleasure to play.

You can never have enough of that, period.

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Re: New Model D ?

Post by Stevie Ray » Sun May 22, 2016 2:31 pm

SteveW wrote:If only I had the room! Instant buy.

Not because I'm chasing the past, or tired of my Voyager, but simply because Moog Music builds lovely, high quality instruments with wonderful tone that are pure pleasure to play.

You can never have enough of that, period.


I have plenty of room, unfortunately not plenty of money :D

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Re: New Model D ?

Post by Stevie Ray » Sun May 22, 2016 3:24 pm

Mike37 wrote:
Stevie Ray wrote:I've owned and restored four model Ds of various vintages and yes, they sound very good, but not outstanding to my ears. The VOS is more advanced and can sound just as good or better (subjectively). There's a huge amount of myth and legacy surrounding the Model D and a lot of it quite unjustified in my opinion.

I don't have any Model Ds any more but I still have a VOS.


Well, taste is subjective. I don't agree with Voyager having a superior basic tone to the Model D. IMO powerful sound with lots of freq content, and natural drifting/motion is preferable. Voyager simply can't compete with the Model D in these aspects. Which is also reflected in the price, as the Model D has a more expensive design/signal path for a fuller and bigger sound. Of course Voyager has more features, but I've come to the realisation, if I have to choose between a more simple instrument with truly inspiring and GREAT sound, and a very complex instrument with "almost great" sound - I'll choose the first one.


I'm sorry but I fail to see how the Model D has a "has a more expensive design/signal path for a fuller and bigger sound". It has exactly the opposite - a cheaper set of components (the only one's available back in the day) with absurd tolerances that would make any contemporary engineer cringe and flip the page on the component catalogue. Perhaps the original Minimoog is the sum of its imperfections and that's why it sounds as good as it does. It is widely acknowledged that the over-driven mixer was a design mistake but it sounded so good, Bob decided to keep it.

Rob Smith
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Re: New Model D ?

Post by Rob Smith » Sun May 22, 2016 5:35 pm

Some of the best things in life happen by accident.......... It's imperfections make it almost perfect.......IMHO

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HookedOnSonics
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Re: New Model D ?

Post by HookedOnSonics » Sun May 22, 2016 11:04 pm

Out of darkness, came such a light. May the Model D sound FOREVER BRIGHT!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnLvfwHFlsY


No more gloom after June .................. D-DAY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67ragXpWsAI
Last edited by HookedOnSonics on Mon May 23, 2016 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Model D ?

Post by sunny pedaal » Mon May 23, 2016 3:08 am

Don't forget the vca's
Plug in an external audiosource in the minimoog model-d and compare with lots of modern synth's ( also the voyagers): with the model-d the sound remains more standing upright, almost all new ones make the sound "thinner"
Would very much love to hear the new model-d with feedbackloop in this respect

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Re: New Model D ?

Post by thealien666 » Mon May 23, 2016 12:38 pm

People seem to forget that the Minimoog D is the brainchild of Bill Hemsath, Jim Scott (renowned for his calculation mistake that overdrove the filter input by some 20 db), and Chad Hunt.
Bob Moog joined the team later on. In fact, at first he was dead set against a "limited portable synth without patch cords" and Bill had to "borrow" some parts from the Modular system for the prototypes. Bob later embraced it wholeheartedly when he saw that the Minimoog D had the potential to be a success.

My hats off to Bill Hemsath and his team for sticking to the their idea.

Honorable mention goes to former R.A. Moog engineer Gene Zumcheck who had left the company before the birth of the Minimoog, but firmly believed in a portable synth also.

(Sources: Gordon Reid (Sound On Sound Magazine), Bob Moog (article by him and Connor Freff Cochran in Mark Vail's Vintage Synthesizers book))
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space_nerd
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Re: New Model D ?

Post by space_nerd » Tue May 24, 2016 11:21 am

thealien666 wrote:People seem to forget that the Minimoog D is the brainchild of Bill Hemsath, Jim Scott (renowned for his calculation mistake that overdrove the filter input by some 20 db), and Chad Hunt.
Bob Moog joined the team later on. In fact, at first he was dead set against a "limited portable synth without patch cords" and Bill had to "borrow" some parts from the Modular system for the prototypes. Bob later embraced it wholeheartedly when he saw that the Minimoog D had the potential to be a success.

My hats off to Bill Hemsath and his team for sticking to the their idea.

Honorable mention goes to former R.A. Moog engineer Gene Zumcheck who had left the company before the birth of the Minimoog, but firmly believed in a portable synth also.

(Sources: Gordon Reid (Sound On Sound Magazine), Bob Moog (article by him and Connor Freff Cochran in Mark Vail's Vintage Synthesizers book))


I remember back in the very early '00's, in 'Audities' (great old) site had an article from Jim Scott about the creation of the minimoog, so there was were I read first about that Bob Moog was opposed the mini initially. :D
So I read that article and I went the next day to save the webpage on my disc .... and the "opposition" part had being edited to "then Bob authored the team to continue to build prototypes"!!! :D
(I believe they did the editing, because Bob Moog had just by then regained back his rights to "Moog/Minimoog" trademarks, and he was about to produce the Voyager :wink: )

-Anyway, back to our subject now, personally I fancy the idea of a new Minimoog, where I hope I'll be able eventually to go to a shop and purchase or order a new mini, with warranty, with support, etc.

Good point they took on the 3046-based oscillator card, to ensure that the new mini will got the classic sound.
I don't know how much the purists gonna scream about the keyboard, and the new PCB panel components wiring.
The thing that concerns me more, is the new, exterior wall-wart power supply:

so there's a question to all of you minimoog owners and technicians:
does the internal power supply on the model D exiting so much heat, to justify the new engineering solution of an external power supply?

I see Moog Music went for a part-to-part, exact as possible, recreation of the modulars.
I believe the reason why there are minor changes on the Mini recreation, is that Moog Music hopes the new Mini's will go onstage (or that's what I hope).

Before the flame war starts, consider this : anybody who wants an authentic minimoog for the "mojo" (we all want one for this reason) can easily pick one, if he can afford it - BUT it's the same with the old les paul and strat guitars : people hunt the old models, while other people buy the new ones off the production line - and remember : the top models from either companies never were cheap.
My point is, I see a quality recreation of a legendary instrument - and judging from the videos I see (and listen too), I think it's gonna be great - only hope they are gonna make a decent quantity if possible, to satisfy everyone who lusts after a Model D.

Another point: I don't understand why people compare between newer instruments with instruments having aged and out of adjustment electronics, and then say "it's not the same" - of course it's not the same!!!!

And something for the end: Moog Music remade the modulars, but I didn't see any flame war of comparison between old systems and new.
Do you know why? :lol: : How many people can afford a new Moog modular system and having an old one too, to make comparisons??? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hope I'm not tiring you with this long post.

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MC
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Re: New Model D ?

Post by MC » Tue May 24, 2016 2:02 pm

thealien666 wrote:Honorable mention goes to former R.A. Moog engineer Gene Zumcheck who had left the company before the birth of the Minimoog, but firmly believed in a portable synth also.


Bob and Gene didn't get along well. After leaving RA Moog, Gene went on to work for Musonics where he designed a portable synth - the Sonic Five. Musonics eventually acquired RA Moog, the Sonic Five became the Moog Sonic Six, and Gene found himself out of a job again :(

space_nerd wrote:I remember back in the very early '00's, in 'Audities' (great old) site had an article from Jim Scott about the creation of the minimoog, so there was were I read first about that Bob Moog was opposed the mini initially. :D
So I read that article and I went the next day to save the webpage on my disc .... and the "opposition" part had being edited to "then Bob authored the team to continue to build prototypes"!!! :D
(I believe they did the editing, because Bob Moog had just by then regained back his rights to "Moog/Minimoog" trademarks, and he was about to produce the Voyager :wink: )


I was helping Audities back in 2000 getting all these cool vintage synths set up for the NAMM show. While I was there, Bob took Dave Kean of Audities in a room for a private conversation. When the meeting was over, Dave told us that Bob was not happy with some items in Jim Scott's article.

I grabbed the unedited version and sure enough some time later it was revised. Bear in mind that although the Voyager prototype made its first appearance at that NAMM show, it would be another three years before Bob got the Moog trademark back.

The thing that concerns me more, is the new, exterior wall-wart power supply:

so there's a question to all of you minimoog owners and technicians:
does the internal power supply on the model D exiting so much heat, to justify the new engineering solution of an external power supply?


Not really. The justification was avoiding $$$$ UL approval. Any new device introduced to consumers that contains any voltage source greater than 40V (AC or DC) must go through a UL approval process, which takes some time and $$$$. This process ensures that there are no fire or electric shock hazards in the design. This expense would had driven up the cost of the new Model D and the process would had delayed its release.

Having said that... the new Model D DOES have the original "dirty" voltage regulator circuit, whose circuit board I recognized. THAT'S the key element, because its "dirty" imperfections prevented the Minimoog VCOs from "locking up" when slightly detuned VCOs sweep towards a crucial point. In the original Minimoog Model D, the power transformer converts 120VAC (or 240VAC) to the low voltage (under 40V) required for the voltage regulator, and the transformer was inside the Minimoog. On the new Model D, the power transformer (external power supply) is OUTSIDE the Minimoog. There are PLENTY of suppliers of external power supplies that have already acquired UL approval and this is good business sense. As long as the original voltage regulator is in the new model D it does not matter where the low voltage feeding the regulator originates, it has no impact on the sound, and it is under the UL radar.

I see Moog Music went for a part-to-part, exact as possible, recreation of the modulars.
I believe the reason why there are minor changes on the Mini recreation, is that Moog Music hopes the new Mini's will go onstage (or that's what I hope).


Moog got an eye (or ear?) opener when they recreated the Taurus pedals. That's when they realized that you can get that vintage sound with new parts if you know what you're doing. The proper definition of "know what you're doing" is recreating the architecture of the original circuits, recreating the non-linearities at key points (which makes it sound "warm"), and knowing how to replicate out-of-production components with new components without sacrificing the sound or function.

People see the through hole components and get all giddly over a pure recreation. Since they used the 3046 based oscillator board, it's a safe bet that the tempco components (crucial to the stable tuning) are now SMT because the through hole equivalent used in the original are no longer available.

Another point: I don't understand why people compare between newer instruments with instruments having aged and out of adjustment electronics, and then say "it's not the same" - of course it's not the same!!!!


I'm an EE and I approve of this point. :mrgreen:

When the T3 was released I heard the same complaints, and too many times had have to explain that the reason they sound different is that their vintage gear with original 30+ year old trimpots and caps are no longer in spec or in calibration. It's like complaining about the difference between vintage and new Les Pauls while the vintage guitar still had rusty frets and strings on it.
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Stevie Ray
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Re: New Model D ?

Post by Stevie Ray » Tue May 24, 2016 3:47 pm

Rob Smith wrote:Some of the best things in life happen by accident.......... It's imperfections make it almost perfect.......IMHO


I agree Rob. Without the imperfections the Model D would not be the legendary instrument it is. I like the Voyagers a hell of a lot, but you could say they are a little bit 'too perfect', and they lose some of the aggressive sonic character of the original 'D' because of that. They are more 'perfect' instruments, whereas what we really want to hear are subtle imperfections.

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Re: New Model D ?

Post by sunny pedaal » Wed May 25, 2016 4:24 pm

i think the model-d is near perfect
and sorry to say , but the more people keep saying the reissue is 100% the same, the more suspicious i'll get
i'm sure the new ones are very good, best imitations around and highly desirable instruments, but please skip the nonsense about the old ones . i have touched enough model-d's to have some experience to talk and say that when a good revision has taken place the old ones offer years and years of comfortable stable usage, including regarding the tuning and keyboard.
must be the marketing and I'd better not react, but come on...

having said that : when and where in europe can i/ we start to try and taste this new monster ?, please

last remark about the voyagers: always expressed that i think they have more the soundcharacter of the multimoog then of a minimoog. which is oke for me, i think the voyager is one heaven of a synth , a working horse pur sang, reliable , good sounding, great possibilities, a classic on it's own

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HookedOnSonics
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Re: New Model D ?

Post by HookedOnSonics » Wed May 25, 2016 8:03 pm

Please put your Trays, Seats, and Model D's in an upright position for a production run starting at Frame 48:52
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nxTsxUKoS8
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