Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

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EricK
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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by EricK » Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:01 pm

Why is it that our message of repentance from a sinful life is twisted to fit the definition of "hate" and "bigotry"?


Because it is posited that this lifestyle is “sinful” and that those who engage in such behavior should “repent” diminishes those people as somehow less than respectable. It belittles them as human beings. Saying such things about people in public is shameful and hurtful. Those scriptures argue that people in that lifestyle deserve death, and are excluded from the kingdom of heaven. Because of teachings such as this, there are death penalties all over the world for people being ACCUSED of homosexuality. There is, therefore, a causation between the scriptural view that something is “an abomination” and persecution of individuals who engage in that behavior, especially through the legislative efforts of the religious right in the United States.

If people want to repackage that as something which isn’t bigotry, then they have an uphill battle to climb.

And there is no evidence whatsoever that “sin” exists, and because such edicts of “morality” come from a library of ancient works written by people with no concept of biology, then there are absolutely no grounds upon which to demonize said lifestyle.





Sexual dimorphism is simply a fact of biology (intersex is extremely rare, and unrelated to the recent phenomenon of transgenderism); you cannot change your chromosomes with surgery or artificial hormones.


Sexual dimorphism is not the rule. There are species which are asexual. Studies have shown that gender can be forced. The existence of intersex individuals, (no matter how rare), the existence of gender related vestigial structures in the human body, the existence of both male and female hormones in the human body, and the existence of innumerable medical conditions which arise from hormonal and chemical imbalances, are evidence of a biological component to homosexuality and gender dysphoria. Furthermore, there are gender determining genes which are NOT associated with the Y chromosome. So arguing solely on the basis of X and Y Chromosomes is oversimplification.

Saying that religious people are motivated by bigotry is not different than saying all gay men are pedophiles…..


In the context of anti-LGBT rhetoric and legislation designed specifically to discriminate against them I think I have illustrated why this statement is false.




I will not stay silent on a forum I frequent while people argue fallaciously about the civil rights of other human beings.
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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by thealien666 » Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:57 pm

This thread should be removed by the moderators. It's annoying and pointless, and can only get uglier and uglier with time.

Like Gaear Grimsrud said to Jerry Lundegaard's kidnapped wife, gagged, tied-up and whining in the back of the getaway car in the film Fargo: "shut the fock up, or I'll throw you back into the trunk ya know !"

:lol:
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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by franklinstower » Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:52 pm

Erik

We are mostly on the same page man and can disagree in either case respectfully. You said--

"In the context of anti-LGBT rhetoric and legislation designed specifically to discriminate against them I think I have illustrated why this statement is false."

That's half true. I agree that it is wrong to discriminate against the LGBT community and I want them all to have the same protections and rights as any other group also. America is a secular country and I want it that way. In the NC laws though is the bathroom issue which I think needs to be parsed out differently. That's why I am suggesting we all take a step back and just go through all of this carefully and slowly.

As a Christian I have to say this-- if any group owes an amends, or has abused its power and caused harm to the LGBT community it is the Christians. Christianity has enjoyed and abused social power and political power and turned a blind eye or worse, contributed to the abuse of people within the LGBT community. Much of the anger towards Christianity in the LGBT community is justified and would not be there if only people within Christianity were not so damn complacent and allowing of the kinds of abuses we see in our country and around the world. By way of commission or omission a great deal of pain and sorrow has been heaped on that community and a long slow amends ought to be felt and made by Christians everywhere.

We all have a long way to go on this issue. To all the people that say this topic does not belong on this forum I think your right and will now cease to contribute to this thread. Peace to everyone and let's all try to get through these issues without hating one another.

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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by MacAquinas » Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:01 pm

EricK wrote:

If people want

And there is no evidence whatsoever that “sin” exists, and because such edicts of “morality” come from a library of ancient works written by people with no concept of biology, then there are absolutely no grounds upon which to demonize




I will not stay silent on a forum I frequent while people argue fallaciously about the civil rights of other human beings.


Previously known as " You have heard that it was said unto those of old..but I say unto you"
Like the line in Tropic Thunder " You went full retard, you never go full retard"...you Went Full Jesus, you never go full Jesus.

And the grandiose line with which you end it all.. is as if you have just done something of historic import, like the Gettysburg Address or the Sermon on the Mount, and we have all been enlightened by it, and "all the crooked paths were made straight"
You merely chimed in, you just put in your 2 cents like everybody else. No more or less.

Doty, I believe. You yourself are here proposing a morality though you appear to be oblivious to it, which is merely ..ought-ought not, must-must not.

So tell us....from whence does a RIGHT derive and what is the sound and sure method of deducing that there is such a particular RIGHT ? Go beyond ...Doty Saith Unto You.

Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity,Islam,Judaism have a well documented body of work but please give us the inductive and deductive method of the authoritative Dogma of Dotyism.
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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by thealien666 » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:50 am

I've always kept my dogma on a leash...
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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by unfiltered37 » Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:09 am

I haven't been back here in a long time, mostly because this forum has gotten boring. But I love this bleep!!! This is the best thread ever. Any chance I get to bash religious ignorance and my backwards home state I will take. The south is a cauldron of bible belt ignorance and intolerance. I have gotten so used to living in the multicultural utopia of the San Francisco bay area, I had forgotten how awful it is there. I am half asian and experienced racism my entire life there. It's crazy to live in a place where everyone is accepted for who they are, then hearing about this kind of crap back in Cackalack.

But this is something Moog should be proud of, and this and everywhere else is EXACTLY the place to bring it up and hash it out. Moog is smart, they know most people who buy their gear are tolerant liberals (and "tolerance" does not mean tolerance of INTOLERANCE) and the bigots who whine about their politics have to put up with it, because moog gear is superb.

This whole thing of it being impolite to talk about religion and politics is a big pile of crap designed by people who can't defend their irrationality. It should never be impolite, or at least the impoliteness shouldn't matter when you know that righteousness, tolerance for individual rights of equality and identity, and the death of religious ignorance is the way of the 2st century. People who are homophobic or transphobic have a NOTHING argument, they have NOTHING to say. There is no legitimate argument against every single person having all the rights of others. it's called the equal protection clause of the US constitution, for those who feign loyalty to that document. Not just equal protection for people you like and agree with, but for all. We all have or should have the rights too live how we want with whatever identity we want. Trust me, I get creeped out by trannies and male gay affection all the time just like every right wing theocratic nutjob out there, but I also get creeped out by old people having sex. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to do whatever they want as long as they don't impinge on the rights of others. Just like trump and the KKK and David Duke should be allowed to meet and plan their fascist conspiracy secretly, because that's their right as americans.

And to everyone, don't be scared of a little controversy, wherever it may come up. Important things should not be censored, and no place is too sacred for important discussion. This is the internet, have some thick skin. And it's just one thread, you are free to ignore it if you want. The supreme court has roundly rejected prior restraint. I got buddies who died face down in the muck so you and I could enjoy this forum.

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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by Spitfire » Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:39 am

bro, "MacAquinas," you're trying way too hard...
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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by MC » Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:36 am

TimeEchoProductions wrote:
MC wrote:
Struble wrote:Oh, and please don't suggest your hatred is supported by the bible -- Jesus preached love and tolerance, not being judgmental jerks.


Jesus also commanded us to sin no more and to spread the gospel to the world. And just remember that Jesus's tolerance of thieves in the temple was within the realm of ejecting them from the house of His Father.

Happy Easter, He has risen.


Jesus also taught, "Let he who has not sinned, cast the first stone."
If you believe the bible, then you should realize Judgement is not your domain.
You are supposed to trust God to be the judge. If you believe in Jesus' message, then you should love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus was the friend of the poor, the persecuted, and the outcasts. Including people seen as "Sinners."
Amazingly, yet another "Christian" believes they need to "spread the gospel" of Jesus, by thinking they know what God's judgement is and judging others. If you are afraid of Trans people because rape has happened before, you damn well better be afraid of Priests. I think Moogs position is way more Christ like than all this bullshit. End of discussion as far as I am concerned.


You know not scripture for you conveniently neglect to mention that not only was Jesus a friend of the poor, the persecuted, and the outcast he also encouraged people NOT TO SIN. Over and over he pleaded "Sin no more". Jesus challenging those to cast the first stone was to tell christians they are not to judge, but to forgive and to warn the unrepentant that they will have to account for their sins before God on the day of Final Judgement. That is not being judgmental, that is informing of dire consequences. We are ALL sinners and must learn to forgive others. I will not deny that there are Christians who get it wrong and I understand why people are angry with them.

The true Christian understands that judgement is reserved to God, but Jesus commanded his disciples and the Christians in the NT to spread the Gospel and remind the world that they will be accounted for their sins unless they repent in their heart and sin no more.

Like the tempter in the desert, atheists distort scripture to try to shame people into submitting. Those of us who are not weak in scripture are not so blind. If you reject God's word then atheists have no justification to use it against Christians, because like Jesus we will call you out on your error "you know not scripture". If you reject scripture that defines sin then Christians will call you out on your error because there are three verses that warn against adding to or taking away from God's Word. All sinners are welcome in church, but sinners have no place in demanding that the church conform to their sinful lifestyle. Jesus made that crystal clear when he threw out the "den of thieves" in the temple.
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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by EricK » Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:49 pm

MC,
I have respect for you as a very long-time member of this forum, but the manner in which you are arguing is very poor. You certainly have a right to respond to criticism of your beliefs, but your characterization of atheists begs me to ask what have I done to deserve such vitriol?

Like the tempter in the desert, atheists distort scripture to


This is a fallacious statement, a blanket generalization.

If you reject God's word then atheists have no justification to use it against Christians


When the message of scripture spills out of the theological realm and causes quantifiable harm to society through discriminatory legislation then people absolutely have justification.

If you reject scripture that defines sin then Christians will call you out on your error because there are three verses that warn against adding to or taking away from God's Word.


Adding or taking away from scripture is more likely a result of things unrelated to your argument:
a)Scribes copying scrolls making intentional and unintentional errors
b)Theologians such as Marcion of Sinope who made tendentious emendations to the texts or authors such as those who penned The Gospel of Thomas after phrases found in Mark.


sinners have no place in demanding that the church conform to their sinful lifestyle


“The Church” has no Constitutional basis for expecting the Government of the United States to recognize scriptural proclamations.
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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by MRNUTTY » Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:06 pm

That got my respect. Thank you EricK.

EricK wrote:I saw on twitter where Moog came out against the NC bill and it's damn good they did.

I'm an atheist and I got instant online ordination because people here in Arkansas were refusing to perform same sex marriages. So I'm registered with the county to officiate weddings. I'm absolutely sick of the bigotry that comes from the religious right in this country and it's time that people take a stand against it.


People can talk, talk, talk all they like, but you put your beliefs into action. Beyond that the rest of this thread is just noise. I agree with thealien666, the thread serves no purpose but argument. Like every other message board on the Internet; no one will have any fundamental change in believes as a result of this thread.
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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by unfiltered37 » Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:32 am

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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by unfiltered37 » Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:33 am

MC wrote:


You know not scripture for you conveniently neglect to mention that not only was Jesus a friend of the poor, the persecuted, and the outcast he also encouraged people NOT TO SIN. Over and over he pleaded "Sin no more". Jesus challenging those to cast the first stone was to tell christians they are not to judge, but to forgive and to warn the unrepentant that they will have to account for their sins before God on the day of Final Judgement. That is not being judgmental, that is informing of dire consequences. We are ALL sinners and must learn to forgive others. I will not deny that there are Christians who get it wrong and I understand why people are angry with them.

The true Christian understands that judgement is reserved to God, but Jesus commanded his disciples and the Christians in the NT to spread the Gospel and remind the world that they will be accounted for their sins unless they repent in their heart and sin no more.

Like the tempter in the desert, atheists distort scripture to try to shame people into submitting. Those of us who are not weak in scripture are not so blind. If you reject God's word then atheists have no justification to use it against Christians, because like Jesus we will call you out on your error "you know not scripture". If you reject scripture that defines sin then Christians will call you out on your error because there are three verses that warn against adding to or taking away from God's Word. All sinners are welcome in church, but sinners have no place in demanding that the church conform to their sinful lifestyle. Jesus made that crystal clear when he threw out the "den of thieves" in the temple.


Oh spare me that holier than thou crap. If you want to believe in primitive mythology written by men who didn't know where the sun went at night, fine, but don't try to impose your beliefs on others. This is america, not iran. We live in the 21st century, not some theocratic antiquity. If you want to talk about christian scripture, how about the condoning of slavery, killing your neighbor for working on the sabbath, paying a man to marry his daughter after raping her, etc.

Any scholar of religion knows you can read anything you want, good or bad into scripture. There's plenty of horrific things in there and to deny this is to deny "god's word". And to insult people that require evidence for their beliefs is hypocritical, when if you were told your wife cheated on you or that the moon was made of cheese, you would not believe it without evidence. I respect your right to believe whatever you want, no matter how absurd, but once you try to control the freedoms and rights of others because of it, you getting into highly negative and hateful areas. Just live and let live.

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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by MacAquinas » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:37 am

unfiltered37 wrote:

Oh spare me that holier than thou crap. If you want to believe in primitive mythology written by men who didn't know where the sun went at night, fine, but don't try to impose your beliefs on others. This is america, not iran.

.


Am I the only one notcing that you are proposing imposing your beliefs on others? Are we to believe in your system, written by you today, because it's by you and today? Who are you? Today is going out of style at the rate of 60 seconds a minute. You have yet to be named worthy of memory for centuries and millenia. You sit in the heart of Western Civilization with mock and disdain for everything it is founded upon. Are you truly ignorant of the fact that inherent rights of all, inalienable natural rights, are a product of the things you mock? You know that you and your friends did not come up with the idea of all being born with rights that government has no power of separating from you,don't you? Have you actually read works of history extensively or do you just get scraps from blogs that mirror yourself?

Go get a little island and start fresh and come back and let us know how that is working out. Copernicus in his humility said "If i have seen farther than others, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants" . You in your ignorance and arrogance look down and say " those midgets are beneath me" You sit on a branch of the massive and ancient tree and start sawing and mocking "that dumb old tree", good luck.

PS? you know that "holier than thou" is a King James bible quote warning us about arrogance don't you? Isaiah 65:5. You have become a bible banger in here. Ignorant bigot using the Bible to judge others :twisted: lol pffffffffffff!
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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by EricK » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:02 am

You sit in the heart of Western Civilization with mock and disdain for everything it is founded upon. Are you truly ignorant of the fact that inherent rights of all, inalienable natural rights, are a product of the things you mock?


Rights come from government.
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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by MacAquinas » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:25 am

EricK wrote:
Rights come from government.


Interesting,so the fill in the blank Rights Movement is delusional and should be told...." Hey, we decided this already,no right for that,go away" ? Ok.The Third Reich was government. It's getting murky what the premise of your argument is. I think it's just "EricK like cake, cake good, cake EricK's right"
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