Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

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thealien666
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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by thealien666 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:56 pm

I thought that this was a forum for exchanging about a shared passion amongst members and visitors: synthesizers.
Not about religion, or politics, or bigotry, or sexual orientation, or whatever else.
There are numerous other places on the net for talking about those, let's keep this forum free from all that crap please ? Thank you.

My opinion on the matter. Who's with me ?

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MC
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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by MC » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:06 pm

Struble wrote:
wordsdrawnigh wrote:
Struble wrote:If you think you love synthesis, but don't respect the rights of trans people -- you don't know your synthesizer history. Good on Moog. They're good people.


Ok, well, I can respect the "rights of transpeople" (which are the same rights as anyone else), while not accepting the notion that people can change their sex. Sexual dimorphism is simply a fact of biology (intersex is extremely rare, and unrelated to the recent phenomenon of transgenderism); you cannot change your chromosomes with surgery or artificial hormones.

I appreciate the work of Wendy Carlos, but he is still a man.


You are still a bigot. If you hate Moog so much for this, why are you still here? Notice that not a single person in this thread has taken your side. You are on the wrong side of history.


Now there are two who share that side, as I happen to be a Christian also.

I implore you to read of a sexual predator who exploited LBGT transgender laws to assault women. Is THIS the history that you side with?

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/sexual-predator-jailed-after-claiming-to-be-transgender-in-order-to-assault

Why is it that our message of repentance from a sinful life is twisted to fit the definition of "hate" and "bigotry"?

Why do we preach "tolerance" to include other religions such as Islam, but at the exclusion of Christianity?

Mind you, I don't use the forum as a soapbox to preach religion but I am very offended by the disposition of people here especially the knee-jerk over-generalizing blanket assessments.

So would someone be so kind to enlighten me how have I wronged this group to deserve such vitriol?
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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by wordsdrawnigh » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:17 pm

Struble wrote:You are still a bigot. If you hate Moog so much for this, why are you still here? Notice that not a single person in this thread has taken your side. You are on the wrong side of history. And if you want to try and sound smart talking about you're backwards view about trans people -- learn the difference between sex and gender. Also, crack a history book -- transgender dismorphia is in no ways recent nor a phenomenon. Sell your Moog gear and get out, and then you'll never have to worry about Moog sharing your feelings ever again. Either that, or grow up and shut the hell up and realize that there is life outside of your cis privilege, and that you need to respect your fellow human beings.


I don't hate Moog; I never saw their e-mail and don't really know anything about this legislation (I try to avoid "the news"). I do hate this so-called "liberal" ideology which promotes "tolerance" and then accuses anyone who disagrees with them about anything of being a "bigot." Believing in the validity of the concept of sexual dimorphism is not "bigotry" or hatred; it is simply a biological fact, which the mass-media propaganda outlets seem to want us to "forget". I think people are free to do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others. Trans-people are free to see themselves however they want, and do whatever they want to their own bodies (though I may personally view it as unhealthy mutilation, encouraged by the "sex change" industry), but I take issue when I am told that I must go along with this mass delusion.

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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by c7sus » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:31 pm

Hysteria over sexual assaults by transsexuals in restrooms is laughable. My wife has been a SANE for over 10 years and by far the overwhelming majority of her cases involve perpetrators that are previously known to the victims---- as in relatives, trusted family friends, and acquaintances. The NC law is a "solution" in search of a problem.
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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by wordsdrawnigh » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:43 pm

c7sus wrote:Hysteria over sexual assaults by transsexuals in restrooms is laughable. My wife has been a SANE for over 10 years and by far the overwhelming majority of her cases involve perpetrators that are previously known to the victims---- as in relatives, trusted family friends, and acquaintances. The NC law is a "solution" in search of a problem.


I think the ideal solution is individual uninsex bathrooms, for those who do not feel comfortable with their "gender identity." This way, they can avoid harassment while not infringing on the rights of women to have safe spaces. But this is never enough; the transwomen always demand that everyone else, including biological women, see them as completely indistinguishable from "women."

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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by franklinstower » Sat Mar 26, 2016 10:10 pm

I have complex thoughts and feelings on this issue. I am 100% for the LGBT community having the same rights and protections as other people. I want them to be able to legally marry and such.

I absolutely don't want biological men in womens restrooms or biological women in mens restrooms. It is wrong to label that paranoia. If my daughter goes into a restroom in the park I want to know for sure something is wrong if a man enters that restroom, gay or straight I need to know... I would be glad to pay more taxes to have neutral gender restrooms installed in all public buildings though. I want everyone to be comfortable.

At the same time that I want all rights of the LGBT community protected I have some criticism of people in that community. I have worked with many gay men-- a lot of them. The degree of promiscuity in a large part of that community is disordered and addictive. There is very little monogamy even in relationships that claim the label. Having more than one sex partner in an evening out is not uncommon for many in that community. I don't think that is good for anyone-- certainly not for the gay men I have counseled who feel deeply pressured to engage in unhealthy sexual practices or be left out of the dating pool. I know there are exceptions to this but it is common. If this goes on only in private then it is only hurting the people who are willingly involved, but it bleeds out into the public sphere.

If you walk through the park near my office at night it is not uncommon to catch men hiding in the trees performing sex acts on one another.... the bathrooms are unusable because of the bodily fluids spewn about the floor.....

I wanted to take my wife and daughter to a gay pride parade just to show support to that community so I did some research on google and ended up watching some footage of gay pride parades. It is no exaggeration to say that what goes on there in public is not appropriate for children and certainly nothing I would even want to see myself. Dildo flags, men in leather chaps mimicking sexual acts on floats, people dressed as demons mimicking sex with nuns, inappropriate nudity and almost every costume is sexualized..... I think there is something wrong with that.

I am still and always have been fully in support of the LGBT community having all of the rights and protections as other people but If the LGBT community wants to continue to have my support then some of this has to change or I will stop supporting it. If the goal is to help hetero sexuals get over their sexual inhibitions unitl public sex acts are considered normal then I will have start voting differently. I respectfully bring this up with members of that community whenever possible. The LGBT community needs to address this when meeting as a community in the public sphere and start policing its members....

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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by Struble » Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:42 pm

It's amazing how you all can act so persecuted when people call you on persecuting someone else. If you don't like that Moog supports LGBTQI rights -- I'm sure they'd be okay with never receiving your money again.

Oh, and please don't suggest your hatred is supported by the bible -- Jesus preached love and tolerance, not being judgmental jerks.
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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by EricK » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:03 am

When I posted my support for Moog's stance, I figured it would be best to just show my appreciation and bow out.

As tempted as I am to defend contentions about bigotry and biology, I have to agree with Alain that this isn't the place for it.

Moog did open this can of worms though. Perhaps they should kindly close it.

This won't get anywhere but ugly.
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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by Vsyevolod » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:04 am

If one thing is clear, it's that this issue has a tendency to polarize people.

I support Moog in their desire to stand up against the tyranny of unconscionable laws.

Is this really the place to discuss this stuff though? Moog is now an employee run company and there's no way in hell that they could have gone ahead with their announcement unless they had 100% backing by all employee-owners. So all this tells us is that they are 100% in agreement.

I don't wish to change anyone's mind regardless of the stance they take. This is the Internet after all and we've all seen how futile that can be.

Moog came out with a statement that reflects the opinion of all employee-owners. Great. Now let's get on with our creative endeavors.

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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by MacAquinas » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:21 am

Vsyevolod wrote:If one thing is clear, it's that this issue has a tendency to polarize people.



Is this really the place to discuss this stuff though? .....

Stephen

.


You have finally realized the point that most missed.
If it is in any way not appropriate to discuss it here, can it possibly be right to be discussed in business e-mail sent to customers? And for all of those who missed the irony of the thread I started.. and proceeded to recite their stump speeches and fly their flags and insult each other and presume to know what someone else is thinking or feeling and believing..and suggested that people sell their Moog products or leave the country or just plain go to hell...you have demonstrated to Moog what a huge mistake they have made.

Happy Easter to you Stephen and to every person on this forum no matter what you think or feel or believe or who you vote for. And to all the Moog employees who make magnificent products that I cherish, thank you for your great work, stick to that please. Never send me an activist e-mail again. Respect me as I respect you.

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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by MC » Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:24 am

Struble wrote:Oh, and please don't suggest your hatred is supported by the bible -- Jesus preached love and tolerance, not being judgmental jerks.


Jesus also commanded us to sin no more and to spread the gospel to the world. And just remember that Jesus's tolerance of thieves in the temple was within the realm of ejecting them from the house of His Father.

Happy Easter, He has risen.
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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by TimeEchoProductions » Sun Mar 27, 2016 11:21 am

MC wrote:
Struble wrote:Oh, and please don't suggest your hatred is supported by the bible -- Jesus preached love and tolerance, not being judgmental jerks.


Jesus also commanded us to sin no more and to spread the gospel to the world. And just remember that Jesus's tolerance of thieves in the temple was within the realm of ejecting them from the house of His Father.

Happy Easter, He has risen.


Jesus also taught, "Let he who has not sinned, cast the first stone."
If you believe the bible, then you should realize Judgement is not your domain.
You are supposed to trust God to be the judge. If you believe in Jesus' message, then you should love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus was the friend of the poor, the persecuted, and the outcasts. Including people seen as "Sinners."
Amazingly, yet another "Christian" believes they need to "spread the gospel" of Jesus, by thinking they know what God's judgement is and judging others. If you are afraid of Trans people because rape has happened before, you damn well better be afraid of Priests. I think Moogs position is way more Christ like than all this bullshit. End of discussion as far as I am concerned.
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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by wordsdrawnigh » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:14 pm

TimeEchoProductions wrote:If you are afraid of Trans people because rape has happened before, you damn well better be afraid of Priests. I think Moogs position is way more Christ like than all this bullshit. End of discussion as far as I am concerned.


I can't speak for MC, but for me, this has absolutely nothing to do with being "afraid of Trans people." Sex-segregated restrooms exist to protect women from sexual assault. Since transwomen are biological men, they are just as likely to commit rape, especially considering many choose not to have "bottom surgery" (e.g. Dana McCallum). Allowing anyone who "self-identifies as a woman" into women's restrooms and locker rooms also invites perverted men to exploit this.

People who are unable to defend their position logically always resort to ad hominem attacks ("bigot," "transphobic," etc.) and then silence opposition ("this is not the place to discuss this anyway").

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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by franklinstower » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:43 pm

^^^^^^

This. This is the elephant in the room that many people cannot seem to see even though it is plainly obvious. I want to live in a secular society that works for everyone. People who are seeking to protect the rights of the LGBT community need to be careful not to let their judgment of others religious beliefs keep them from thinking clearly themselves. Saying that religious people are motivated by bigotry is not different than saying all gay men are pedophiles.....

If supporting that community means I have to expose society to oversexualizaton and risky behaviours of gay and straight men, then I find that unacceptable. We need to move through all of this slowly and thoroughly and not let our feelings keep us from being clear. We can find a solution and a society that works for everyone if we are willing.

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Re: Religion and Politics thread coming soon....

Post by Stuka » Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:18 pm

thealien666 wrote:I thought that this was a forum for exchanging about a shared passion amongst members and visitors: synthesizers.
Not about religion, or politics, or bigotry, or sexual orientation, or whatever else.
There are numerous other places on the net for talking about those, let's keep this forum free from all that crap please ? Thank you.

My opinion on the matter. Who's with me ?

Alain.



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