RE: Mini / Multi - Home Recording (FX)?

[MRNUTTY]

I Love it! FUN is the word, very upbeat!

[thealien666]

Thanks ! Glad you liked the music. But sound-production-and-recording wise, do you feel that it sounds good to your ears ? (the point of this thread)

[MRNUTTY]

OK, some criticism then I listened to it on my iPad once, then twice with some nice noise canceling headphones. I could take it down to the studio for a really critical listen, but I'm chilling with my wife right now. I hear four parts, Bass, lead, the pulsing FM sound and the electric piano. The performance had pretty much no dynamics, timing is a little sloppy, lead was too sparse. Except for the first couple of bars, the EP is lost in the pulsing FM sound. Since their both playing every 1/4 note, either carve out different freq ranges or put it in a difference octave. There are a couple of parts where the EP phrasing comes through; but with only four parts, it really shouldn't be lost. However, it came across as something I would really love to develop, especially the lead phrasing - I loved the melodic ideas, but it sounded still early in development. What did you hear that would need improvement?

[MRNUTTY]

Took a short break down to the studio, listened to it a couple of times on my reference Focal Twins and Avantones*; pretty much the same outcome. One other note was the FM was a bit too cutting throughout the length of the tune, and the noise component sounded a lot like just noise, some filter dynamics there would help give a less tiring sound. Stereo imaging could have been more interesting. Still a great start!

These are very midrange punchy. This is a good place to discover too much/overlapping midrange content in the pulsing FM and EP parts. The lead and bass came through fine here, and the Focals.

[thealien666]

Wow! Thanks very much MRNUTTY! That's the first time that someone nailed it so close to what it actually is !

As I was reading your replies, I stopped after each technical detail and said to myself: he's right about this, he's right about that...

Subconsciously I knew that the lead was lacking somewhat (blame it on poor inspiration of the moment), and I wasn't completely satisfied with harsh (too harsh ?) FM type track results, which I had to bring down quite a lot in the mix, even though it's still overshadowing the piano in some parts.

But all in all, I was "satisfied enough" to publish it as a short semi-live jam session. In retrospect, I might have had to tweak things a little more to get it even better, but that wasn't really my goal.

That goes to show how recording and mixing can be a balance act, and how easily and quickly (too quickly sometimes) things can get out of control.
I've found that the more you work on a project, and the more you listen to it on the same night (or day), the less objective you become. You have to take a break, and not listen to it for a while. The next day (or night) it will often sound very different, even though nothing has change since the day before.

Our ears and brain work in mysterious ways. That's why it can be difficult to evaluate when something is exactly right, sound wise. Let alone musically !

Anyway, thanks again for your honest opinion, from someone who seems to really be able to tell how things are. Much appreciated.

Alain.

[monsterjazzlicks]

Atomic,

The below clip is tracked, no midi. I played my K2600, guitar and real drums. The drums were recorded with four mics. I played the solo on the synth, not on guitar. Every track was EQ'd and compressed to some degree when I mixed it.

So the song starts in 6/4, and then (the OLD) dotted-quarter-notes become the quarter-note in the NEW tempo, which merges into a (shuffle beat) 4/4 meter. I think that's right (though it's very late and I am pretty well under the influence! lol)?

I thought that the MUSIC entered almost instantaneously as soon as I hit the PLAY button. Do you not prefer not to leave any silence (or fade-in) at the start of a track (song)?

Was that a KORG M1 factory preset ORGAN playing the BASSLINE at the start? It sounded like it could have been (though it's 20 x years since I played one!).

I don't really know anything about GUITAR's (other than how they are TUNED!) so I can't comment on that factor too much. Though the SOLO did sound very much like a GUITAR (to me at least) and so if you performed this on the SYNTH then it was well emulated stylistically.

Was it yourself SINGING or a client (whom you made the backing track for [if that was it's purpose])?

Ta,

Paul

[monsterjazzlicks]

Hi again Alien,

While we're on the subject, here's a good example of what I did recently, and usually what I do.

https://soundcloud.com/thealien666/fun- ... n-minimoog

In that piece, which was all improvised one track at a time starting with the "FM" timbre, that track has a lot of reverb on it, and some slight timed delay too in there, because I wanted to create a "strange" alien type sound, but still keep it musical. The second track was the bass line, which is almost dry (only 10% reverb level on this one) because I wanted it to sound much closer than the "FM" track. The third track was the Electric Piano of the Alesis Ion, which is panned more to the left, with medium level reverb but shorter time than on the other tracks, because I wanted to give the impression of a band with the piano player to one side of the stage. And the final track was the Minimoog Lead, which is using the well-known Minimoog D feedback trick to get that sweet distorted lead sound out of it, with only a slight reverb there also (same level as on the piano track but with a longer reverberation time).

I heard this track a of days ago when I visited your SoundCloud channel. So the above break down you kindly offered was very interesting, thank you.

The (+1 x tone) PITCH BEND into the ROOT of the TONIC chord @ 1:22 is something I have heard before (somewhere?) and I am damned if I can remember where!

There is a 9/8 BAR @ 1:33 for anyone trying to tap their foot along!

I like the RALL at the end (as it adds a certain degree of humanness to ELECTRONIC music).

Yes, the ALIEN-ess is quite apparent on the FM track. I assume this is on the ALESIS? And that's also the FM PIANO on the ALESIS? Yes, I hear it nicely offset in it's PANNING.

By "MINIMOOG trick", do you mean feeding (looping) the synth back into itself and triggering the OVERLOAD (light) please?

Best,

Paul

[thealien666]

Thanks Paul.

The FM timbre is actually the Minimoog D (OSC 3 modulating the pitch of OSC 1 and 2 at high speed, and also changing frequency depending on the key played)!

Everything is Minimoog D, except the El Piano (a patch that I created myself on the Alesis Ion).

And yes, that's the Minimoog D feedback trick you describe for the lead part. In my case, the LOW output sent back into the EXT INPUT, with the level just on the edge of self-oscillation audio feedback.

Alain.

[monsterjazzlicks]

Sure Alien,

The FM timbre is actually the Minimoog D (OSC 3 modulating the pitch of OSC 1 and 2 at high speed, and also changing frequency depending on the key played)!

Mmm, never thought of that one myself ever! I will have a little try of that in the morning (well afternoon! ). So you would term that as being FM? Enlighten me from my ignorance please!?

Everything is Minimoog D, except the El Piano (a patch that I created myself on the Alesis Ion).[/b]

Ok, so your own FM PIANO on the ALESIS? Very nice. Can't be doing with naff FACTORY PRESETS!

And yes, that's the Minimoog D feedback trick you describe for the lead part. In my case, the LOW output sent back into the EXT INPUT, with the level just on the edge of self-oscillation audio feedback.

I dare not try this with my beloved and very expensive MINI as yet! I am totally paranoid about damaging anything to be honest so I have refrained from this one. But I will bring it up again in a later/another discussion.

The rate and depthness of responses on th5s forum has got to be ranking second to none!

Paul

[atomicsynth]

Atomic,

The below clip is tracked, no midi. I played my K2600, guitar and real drums. The drums were recorded with four mics. I played the solo on the synth, not on guitar. Every track was EQ'd and compressed to some degree when I mixed it.

So the song starts in 6/4, and then (the OLD) dotted-quarter-notes become the quarter-note in the NEW tempo, which merges into a (shuffle beat) 4/4 meter. I think that's right (though it's very late and I am pretty well under the influence! lol)?

Was that a KORG M1 factory preset ORGAN playing the BASSLINE at the start? It sounded like it could have been (though it's 20 x years since I played one!).

I don't really know anything about GUITAR's (other than how they are TUNED!) so I can't comment on that factor too much. Though the SOLO did sound very much like a GUITAR (to me at least) and so if you performed this on the SYNTH then it was well emulated stylistically.

Was it yourself SINGING or a client (whom you made the backing track for [if that was it's purpose])?

Ta,

Paul

Hi Paul,

It's totally in 4/4. It was a clip so I didn't bother with silence preceding.

I used organ samples combined with the K2600's KB3 tone wheel emulation mode and boosted the percussion/key click in the synth's KDFX onboard effects processor. I also used bass guitar samples for the bass line below the organ part during the solo and throughout the song.

The patch for the solo was built from layered guitar samples then processed in KDFX for overdrive. I did play it on the synth and live I've played that organ part in my left hand and the solo in my right hand, which was a bit tricky but it was fun. Here though they were tracked separately for mixing purposes.

I played the horn parts fron the Kurzweil. The guitar is a rhythm guitar part for the most though I did play the main riff on it. The guitar doesn't return , or in context of the clip, begin until the the last two bars of the solo.The pads of analog brassy sawtooth synth sounds were multi-sampled into the Kurzweil from my 70's Emu submodule based homebuilt modular. (The only other synth I have is the Memorymoog, which was in disrepair then and what I am presently restoring).

My son had asked me in 2007 to write the trailer song for his self documentary film which was featured by the college. He gave me all of three days notice and told me he wanted something very big sounding with a lot of drive to it so I started from scratch and three days later he was flying it into the video editor. I was really flattered in the Q&A after the film when kids in the audience stood up and wanted to know where they could buy "the kick ass song" ( their words) so I burned free CDR's for them all later in the week which my son gave out. They show the film yet yearly to incoming freshmen classes.It's rather a running joke with me that it's the only thing approaching power pop I ever did.

I did the vocal. I played the drums. I think that covers it. I've recorded solo this way since the 70's. Its just digital now rather than the four track reel to reel of decades past ( which I still have). Thanks very much for asking about it all.

Good luck wth your endeavors, Paul

[thealien666]

So you would term that as being FM? Enlighten me from my ignorance please!?

It might not be exactly what you're used to on the Yamaha DX, but it is still technically FM (Frequency Modulation) nonetheless.

Think of OSC 1&2 as the carrier, and OSC 3 as the modulator.

Of course this sort of FM tone generation is much more limited on the Mini than on a Yamaha DX.

[MoogProg]

Most synthesizers sound quite good recorded directly (unlike an electric guitar), so the need for added effects on them is less critical. TIFWIW.

^This is perhaps The Big Secret to a good recording, creating the best sound possible as early early in the recording chain as possible. Want a good sounding acoustic guitar sound? Play a Martin or Lowden. Moog Model D should sound allright!

Right along with this principle is sorting out your arrangement early, so each part is created with the larger composition in mind. e.g. Dick Hyman on piano and Moog, live performance, no effects, no overdubbing.

IMHO mixing and EQ are a late-in-the-game finishing processes.* I often think too much attention is placed on this portion of the work, and also that the 'loudness war' is a bad thing to wage (bad for your music). My personal strategy has been to use great sounding gear in my hands, and then do little to nothing after recording.

Without any claim to greatness, below is a recording I did outside-the-box using a Tascam DP-03 Portastudio. Point here is that there is no EQ or compression, and I even used the built-in microphones for the acoustic instruments. I wanted to see how this simple, efficient recording box sounded, and it passed the test (for my purposes at least).

https://soundcloud.com/michael-h-geimer/dp03-soundcheck

[monsterjazzlicks]

Hi,

So you would term that as being FM? Enlighten me from my ignorance please!?

It might not be exactly what you're used to on the Yamaha DX, but it is still technically FM (Frequency Modulation) nonetheless. Think of OSC 1&2 as the carrier, and OSC 3 as the modulator. Of course this sort of FM tone generation is much more limited on the Mini than on a Yamaha DX.

Ok, I gotcha. No, I had not looked at it that way before.

So the DX is just a sophisticated version of the MINI! lol

Ta,

Paul

[MRNUTTY]

@thealien666, LOL! Yes, I was "satisfied enough" with it too Very cool! As a finished recording though, or something that represented my best work, I would work on the things I mentioned first. Then see where I came out. Also, like @MoogProg mentioned above, you have to record with the best. You can't make a great recording with a bad microphone, or a poor instrument, or a bad take (not getting into ProTools discussions here ). You don't want to be at a place where you have to "fix it in the mix", but there are time constraints on us all, and we do what we do best, and love the most. And I was very happy with your piece before I put my "Recording Hat" on. It gave me inspiration, and that's the best gift you can give.

[monsterjazzlicks]

Hello MoogProg,

This is perhaps The Big Secret to a good recording, creating the best sound possible as early early in the recording chain as possible. Want a good sounding acoustic guitar sound? Play a Martin or Lowden. Moog Model D should sound allright!

Right along with this principle is sorting out your arrangement early, so each part is created with the larger composition in mind. e.g. Dick Hyman on piano and Moog, live performance, no effects, no overdubbing.

IMHO mixing and EQ are a late-in-the-game finishing processes.* I often think too much attention is placed on this portion of the work, and also that the 'loudness war' is a bad thing to wage (bad for your music). My personal strategy has been to use great sounding gear in my hands, and then do little to nothing after recording.

Without any claim to greatness, below is a recording I did outside-the-box using a Tascam DP-03 Portastudio. Point here is that there is no EQ or compression, and I even used the built-in microphones for the acoustic instruments. I wanted to see how this simple, efficient recording box sounded, and it passed the test (for my purposes at least).

https://soundcloud.com/michael-h-geimer/dp03-soundcheck

I have never actually composed a piece solely for SYNTHESIZER before. I mean I have recorded/uploaded snippets (lasting circa 2 x min's max [each]), but not would you would refer to as being a fully blown composition. Some people on You Tube have SYNTH compositions which go on for (say) 45 x min's! lol I just have just simply not got that kind of imagination (for ideas) that could justify filling such a vast amount of duration. I am (and always have been) much more of a pen and paper man, but I am trying to turn that around. "Each to their own" as they say!

The DX's are very noisy when recorded DIRECTLY so I dread to think what they would be like if mic'ed up via an amp (or whatever)! Esp if you have the INTERNAL CHORUS FX activated. The generated noise has ruined a few of my uploads for sure.

I do very much like the SOUND of your SoundCloud offering. You created a pleasing sonic environment and everything (to me) sounded pretty much crystal clear.

I think I like your idea of getting the meat and potatoes recorded first, and then add the icing on the cake later on down the line (excuse the food analogy!).

Thanks,

Paul