RE: Mini / Multi - Home Recording (FX)?

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monsterjazzlicks
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Re: RE: Mini / Multi - Home Recording (FX)?

Post by monsterjazzlicks » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:52 pm

Howdy,

I was also looking at trying to create something of a TRUMPET sound on the MULTI. But what I can't seem to do is assign the NOISE (generator) it's own ENVELOPE?

I was hoping to have a very FAST DECAY of the NOISE (so that it might emulate the [real life] spit effect). In other words, the timbre has it's own VOLUME EG and the NOISE has it's own independent (shorter) one. As we all know, the spit effect only happens for a very short duration and so it sounds unauthentic if it lasts the full (same) duration as the rest of the timbre!

I have uploaded a quick demo where I play the TRUMPET sound arpeggio, and the repeat it WITH the NOISE I am not able to shape. Then I play another two versions using LONG notes (where the unwanted NOISE duration is very much prominent [sounding like the poor old TRUMPETER is playing in a thunder storm!]). Obviously VOLUME control is not an issue (it has it's own dedicated dial).

Please click LINK for PicoSound: http://picosong.com/gBjF

Thanks in advance,

Paul

monsterjazzlicks
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Re: RE: Mini / Multi - Home Recording (FX)?

Post by monsterjazzlicks » Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:06 am

Hello,

Has been a full evening of much experimentation! lol

I tried setting the MULTI VOLUME at only 4. And (again) came out of the LO OUTPUT.

Then into the MXR Carbon Copy and into my (Steinberg) soundcard.

On the soundcard I BOOSTED the LEVEL back up some, and then also BOOSTED it up again in CUBASE.

Now, this time I got a different result, albeit not perfect by any means. Instead of all the quasi-tuning in a radio type noise, I got a kind of SHHHHH (or WHITE-ish noise for lack of a better description). And, according to my ears, unlike the other high-frequency unwanted noise I was experiencing before, this version seems to be at a FIXED PITCH. Again, it is only apparent in the UPPER registers.

For yet another interesting sonic audio experience(!): http://picosong.com/gBjr

Cheers,

Paul

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DonutDude
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Re: RE: Mini / Multi - Home Recording (FX)?

Post by DonutDude » Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:09 am

monsterjazzlicks wrote: I have found that in the last 4 x years (basically since I bought CUBASE) I my workflow has been very UNPRODUCTIVE (apart from my growing interest in FM SYNTHESIS). Pre-CUBASE, I would spent months transcribing Chick Corea solo's and writing out big band compositions etc. But over the past 2/3 x years I have been stuck in something of a musical rut and you just end up getting NOTHING done!
You've posted a lot of musical ideas lately Paul - looks like you may have climbed out of that musical rut. Congrats!

monsterjazzlicks
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Re: RE: Mini / Multi - Home Recording (FX)?

Post by monsterjazzlicks » Mon Jun 29, 2015 5:54 am

Hi DD,
DonutDude wrote:You've posted a lot of musical ideas lately Paul - looks like you may have climbed out of that musical rut. Congrats!
Thank you for your encouragement.

Well, I spent about 18 x months on the DX7 reading and (trying to!) programming. But had never done anything with the MOOG's. I would really to get better and understand recording/CUBASE but I want to at least try and make some headway with the MOOG's. So I am therefore kind of combining these two goals/interests.

Best,

Paul

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Re: RE: Mini / Multi - Home Recording (FX)?

Post by monsterjazzlicks » Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:47 pm

"Boogie MOOG" - dedicated to Peter Sklaroff, Wales, UK (Seaman - 2015).

Hi,

Hurry up and grab your Blue Suede Shoes . . .

Using the MultiMoog with some (stacked) 3 x note chords, and MXR DELAY set to fast SLAPBACK. And of course a few PITCH BEND licks thrown in!

Available now on PicoSong: http://picosong.com/gxPH

(Or, if you prefer, on You Tube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIxvsVP ... e=youtu.be)

Best,

Paul

monsterjazzlicks
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Re: RE: Mini / Multi - Home Recording (FX)?

Post by monsterjazzlicks » Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:51 am

Hello Piktor,
Piktor wrote:I'm not sure if you are literally trying to get the sound of a saxophone on the Multimoog, or if you are trying to get an expressive sound that is saxophone-like. I am far from an expert, but don't think that the Multi is going to get you a saxophone sound. I don't really think that you have to have that exact sound to have some of the effect.
"Multi Sax" - dedicated to the legendary Andy Hunter, Scotland, UK (Seaman - 2015).

This is my humble attempt at recreating a SAXOPHONE on the MULTIMOOG. Took a very long time to come up with this one ! :shock:

Using the MultiMoog with some VIBRATO added to longi-ish notes, and some PITCH BENDING in between. A very small amount of REVERB added in CUBASE.

Right here on PicoSong; http://picosong.com/gDAU

Or, if you prefer, on You Tube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLTpv68 ... e=youtu.be

Thanks,

Paul

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Piktor
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Re: RE: Mini / Multi - Home Recording (FX)?

Post by Piktor » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:59 am

Hi Paul,
monsterjazzlicks wrote:Oh wow yes, was that YOU? I never realized until just now! lol I like all of the (very helpful) CAPTIONS throughout your demonstrations.

If you assign the PEDAL to control PITCH BEND (as you do in the above video), then does this allow you to free up the MOD WHEEL to control something totally different? For instance, use the PEDAL for PITCH BENDING and and MOD WHEEL for FILTER MOD? I am taking the RIBBON CONTROLLER completely out of the equation here (as mine is non-functioning).
First of all, in the You Tube videos I am not using the voltage control pedal to bend pitch. One can use the VC pedal to do that, but I prefer to use my hand as it gives me finer control.

The short answer to your first question is "yes" - mostly.

The (very) long answer:

Background -
The name of the game is modulation. Because of the Multimoog's design, there are two main sections (aside from envelopes, etc.) where you can determine what will be modulated. The keyboard touch section's "destinations" can access osc A&B, osc A alone, osc A&B + filter, the "pitch" of osc A synched to osc B and osc A's pulse width. The modulation section's "routing" can access osc A&B, osc A&B + filter, and osc B's pulse width. Note that the destination sets are somewhat different from each other.

As you know, around the front of the Multimoog there are a bunch of input and output jacks. Remember, I am plugging the VC pedal (one could use any VC source, by the way) into the keyboard force output. The key for me was discovering that the keyboard force output jack also functions as an CV input jack. While one could just plug a VC source into the Multimoog's filter input jack or the oscillator A&B jack, if you use the keyboard force jack, you can still manipulate the filter and the oscillators, but you can also control a number of other things with the VC source.


WHAT YOU CAN DO depends on how you set the front panel switch named "force sensor" -

a) Setting force sensor to "mod":
Normally, without a CV input into the force sensor jack, if you set the force sensor switch to mod, than the modulation section's rate and source settings will be applied to whatever destination you set in the keyboard touch section. As you apply pressure to a key, the intensity of the modulation section's source will increase. e.g. Select a sawtooth wave as a modulation source, set the rate to a nice vibrato speed, set the keyboard touch section destination to filter and apply downward pressure to any note on the keyboard. You will hear filter opening and closing at the rater you set at an intensity that is set by the degree of finger pressure that you used. (Be sure that you also adjust the sensitivity with the keyboard touch section's amount knob.)

Now, using keyboard touch (pressure) to add modulation is great for some things. The disadvantage of this control system is that you have to linger on one note in order for you to apply that keyboard pressure. Of course, you could also use the modulation wheel to apply the sawtooth mod source to sweep the filter, the oscillators' pitch and the pulse width of oscillator B. However, you cannot use the modulation wheel to sweep the pitch of just one oscillator, or to sweep the synced oscillator A. If you plug in the VC source (in my case a VC pedal) as described above and set the force sensor to "mod", then you can use the VC source to apply the modulation section's rate and source settings to any destination that you set in the keyboard touch destination. For example, now you could have a slow CONSTANT sweep of the synced oscillator A as you play lines on the keyboard. Of course, you could just manually work oscillator A's "interval" knob as you play lines and get the same sound, but that means your left hand would not be available to comp, do pitch bends, or hold a beer bottle :). Another thing that I like to do a bit with this set up is set the modulation source to "filter contour" and set the destination to oscillator A. With the filter envelope set to a very short attack/release, you can get interesting pitch modulation on note attacks. If you apply the same source to synced oscillator A, you get variations of that synced "Let's Go" by the Cars sound.

You CAN have the modulation section's routing switch set to a different destination than the destination that you set for the VC pedal, though, since the Multimoog has only one low frequency oscillator, both destinations will be modulated by that same single source (e.g. same waveform & same rate).


b) Setting force sensor to "bend":
Here is where you get the most flexibility. You can manually sweep any of the keyboard touch section's destinations and have a completely independent setting for the modulation section.

e.g. sweep filter with the VC source and apply a sawtooth with the modulation wheel
e.g. use the VC source to sweep the harmonics of a synced oscillator A while applying a slow sawtooth to osc B's pulse width or modulation the filter with Sample and Hold or doing multi octave pitch bends with the mod wheel, etc. etc.
e.g. bending oscillator A and leaving it set to an octave higher than oscillator B (something that you cannot normally do on the Multimoog without messing with the range and scaling trim pots...you don't want to go there)

Of course, the keyboard touch (pressure) function will still work, even while a VC source is plugged in. I like the touch thing for certain things (e.g. manually performing a vibrato, sweep the filter, etc.) Sometimes I switch back and forth.
monsterjazzlicks wrote: Secondly, I know you made your PEDALyouself, but it is not possible to PURCHASE one? Or does such a device not exist? Obviously you can purchase VOLUME control pedals to use with analogue synths such as JUNO 6 and POLY 61 etc, though I would guess that these are less sophisticated than what would be required to perform the desired tasks on the MULTI?
A voltage control pedal is not the same thing as the expression pedals that you buy for modern or older midi keyboards. I believe that the (modern) Moog company used to make a voltage control pedal that was very flexible. I was considering buying one, but it seems to be discontinued. I checked online for other possibilities. Online, I see that there is the Electro Harmonix EHX Expression Pedal which functions as both a midi expression pedal as well as a VC pedal. Perhaps someone else has other suggestions. I made mine own long ago, because I had Craig Anderton's article on how to turn an old volume pedal into a VC pedal. I already had a crappy old unused volume pedal. Though I can barely work a soldering iron, I managed to mod the pedal and it still works today. It needs a new 9 volt battery every once in a long while.

Okay, on to the next question....

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Piktor
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Re: RE: Mini / Multi - Home Recording (FX)?

Post by Piktor » Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:11 am

monsterjazzlicks wrote:Piktor,
Piktor wrote:Tom's response: "The Multi was conceived of as a "front end" to a modular system, i.e. as a controller. If you look at what we put on the back, it would do this pretty well!
So, does this mean, please, that you could (for instance) come out of a JUNO 6, into the MULTIMOOG (whatever INPUT that might be called?), then out of the MULTI (whatever OUTPUT that might be called?)and into your AMPLIFIER? This would then enable you to manipulate (modulate) the tone of the JUNO using the parameters (dials) on the MULTI?

The Multimoog and the JUNO won't talk to each other via the Multi's front panel. The Multimoog was designed before midi was created. All of the Multimoog's interfacing is done through audio connections and voltage control. Because I have the old Roland MPU 101 to convert midi messages to voltage controls, I can send midi information to the Multimoog. In addition, I also have a custom made Edmonton Audio box for tame the voltages that come from the MPU 101 to values that the Multi needs to see. To be honest, I rarely use midi with the Multi anymore. I went with the midi interfacing thing long before modern sequencers were designed with the ability to efficiently record audio.
Piktor wrote:"And, it was cheaper to put it as I/O rather than a front panel function."
Does I/0 mean IN/OUT please?

Yes. In this case the "force sensor" is both an input and an output.

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Piktor
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Re: RE: Mini / Multi - Home Recording (FX)?

Post by Piktor » Thu Jul 02, 2015 2:05 am

monsterjazzlicks wrote:Hello Piktor,
Piktor wrote:I'm not sure if you are literally trying to get the sound of a saxophone on the Multimoog, or if you are trying to get an expressive sound that is saxophone-like. I am far from an expert, but don't think that the Multi is going to get you a saxophone sound. I don't really think that you have to have that exact sound to have some of the effect.
"Multi Sax" - dedicated to the legendary Andy Hunter, Scotland, UK (Seaman - 2015).

This is my humble attempt at recreating a SAXOPHONE on the MULTIMOOG. Took a very long time to come up with this one ! :shock:

Using the MultiMoog with some VIBRATO added to longi-ish notes, and some PITCH BENDING in between. A very small amount of REVERB added in CUBASE.

Right here on PicoSong; http://picosong.com/gDAU

Or, if you prefer, on You Tube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLTpv68 ... e=youtu.be

Thanks,

Paul
I hear that you are going for and getting a more "organic" kind of thing going with the vibrato, etc. Good work.
Hey, I do have one suggestion, if you don't mind. Take it for whatever you think that it's worth. I love that you are checking out the pitch ribbon more in your last two tunes. Unlike modern synths where most players set their pitch benders to exactly a whole tone, the Multimoog ribbon's range is somewhere around a perfect 5th, give or take.... Personally, I always set my benders on other synths to cover a range of at least a major third up and a major third down, because I know that I can bend a guitar string at least a minor third and I want to be able to play a manual vibrato that goes sharp and flat of my target notes. It takes time and practice to get it right and with the larger bend range on the Multimoog, I have to practice even more. From what I hear, saxophone players tend to bend pitch upwards from below the target pitch, or at the end of a phrase drop the pitch of their last note slightly below the target pitch as they let the note go. To get that first sound, I'll touch the ribbon just slightly below the center bump and slide up to the bump. I might time that so that the flat part of the pitch heard just before the beat and land on the target pitch on the beat (or off-beat, or where ever I intended the note to land), kind of like a grace note. One of the advantages of that kind of bend is you know that the end of the bend will always land on a pitch that is in tune. I hear you bending away from the bump instead of to the bump. That takes a bit more work. Of course, that approach is idiomatic for guitars, trumpet doits (opposite of a spill) etc.

Piktor,

p.s. You asked about the theme that I was improvising on in my YT video. I don't know if it is from a movie or not. If it is, I wasn't consciously doing that. The closest thing that I could think of is the theme from Love Story (old movie). Who knows?

monsterjazzlicks
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Re: RE: Mini / Multi - Home Recording (FX)?

Post by monsterjazzlicks » Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:21 am

Hi Piktor,
Piktor wrote:
monsterjazzlicks wrote:
Piktor wrote:This is my humble attempt at recreating a SAXOPHONE on the MULTIMOOG. Took a very long time to come up with this one! Using the MultiMoog with some VIBRATO added to longi-ish notes, and some PITCH BENDING in between. A very small amount of REVERB added in CUBASE.

Right here on PicoSong; http://picosong.com/gDAU

Or, if you prefer, on You Tube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLTpv68 ... e=youtu.be
I hear that you are going for and getting a more "organic" kind of thing going with the vibrato, etc. Good work.
Hey, I do have one suggestion, if you don't mind. Take it for whatever you think that it's worth. I love that you are checking out the pitch ribbon more in your last two tunes. Unlike modern synths where most players set their pitch benders to exactly a whole tone, the Multimoog ribbon's range is somewhere around a perfect 5th, give or take.... Personally, I always set my benders on other synths to cover a range of at least a major third up and a major third down, because I know that I can bend a guitar string at least a minor third and I want to be able to play a manual vibrato that goes sharp and flat of my target notes. It takes time and practice to get it right and with the larger bend range on the Multimoog, I have to practice even more.
Thanks very much indeed for taking to time to reply in detail.

I typically set my other synth PITCH BENDERS to either a SEMITONE, TONE or and OCTAVE; though I have experimented with every possible permutation possible (right up to 2 x OCTAVES! [on the KORG M1]). Infuriatingly, my Nord Stage Classic's PITCH BEND is hard fixed at 1 x TONE which is just a ridiculous concept (well, it is not even a concept!).

I did what I could with the MULTI MOOG PITCH BEND's but as mentioned a couple of weeks ago, it is very temperamental and (luckily) stayed controllable for just enough time to record a fairly decent take (around 10 x min's). Ditto for AFTERTOUCH (Force Sensor). But yes, you are correct about a SAX usually BENDING INTO the note from BELOW. I was only able to use the (workable) upper half of the RIBBON hence the UPWARD BENDS leaving the note (as a kind of workaround of sorts [ie better than nothing!]).

If you take a quick listen to my recent upload MOOG BOOGIE, I try to emulate the BEND's you describe using a quasi-Elec. Guitar patch.

Cheers,

Paul

monsterjazzlicks
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Re: RE: Mini / Multi - Home Recording (FX)?

Post by monsterjazzlicks » Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:00 am

Hi Piktor,
Piktor wrote:
monsterjazzlicks wrote:
Piktor wrote:Tom's response: "The Multi was conceived of as a "front end" to a modular system, i.e. as a controller. If you look at what we put on the back, it would do this pretty well!
So, does this mean, please, that you could (for instance) come out of a JUNO 6, into the MULTIMOOG (whatever INPUT that might be called?), then out of the MULTI (whatever OUTPUT that might be called?)and into your AMPLIFIER? This would then enable you to manipulate (modulate) the tone of the JUNO using the parameters (dials) on the MULTI?

The Multimoog and the JUNO won't talk to each other via the Multi's front panel. The Multimoog was designed before midi was created. All of the Multimoog's interfacing is done through audio connections and voltage control. Because I have the old Roland MPU 101 to convert midi messages to voltage controls, I can send midi information to the Multimoog. In addition, I also have a custom made Edmonton Audio box for tame the voltages that come from the MPU 101 to values that the Multi needs to see. To be honest, I rarely use midi with the Multi anymore. I went with the midi interfacing thing long before modern sequencers were designed with the ability to efficiently record audio.
I don't think (as per usual!) I described my question accurately/properly. If so, then my wrong!

I meant (rather than as a pre-MIDI system), using the MULTI as a PROCESSOR of sorts. So not to trigger NOTES, but to just be able to shape/filter the timbre of the JUNO. In other words, something of a sophisticated FX UNIT/PEDAL (call it what you will). I you know what I mean. :)

Many thanks,

Paul

monsterjazzlicks
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Re: RE: Mini / Multi - Home Recording (FX)?

Post by monsterjazzlicks » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:24 pm

Hi,
Piktor wrote:Yes. In this case the "force sensor" is both an input and an output.
Ok, cheers.
Piktor wrote:You asked about the theme that I was improvising on in my YT video. I don't know if it is from a movie or not. If it is, I wasn't consciously doing that. The closest thing that I could think of is the theme from Love Story (old movie). Who knows?
Yes, there are a few hints towards LOVE STORY (a second inversion Minor triad [Minor 6th interval])! lol

But actually, it is from John Cavacas's theme tune for (the fantastic 70's film) HORROR EXPRESS! LINK on your YOU TUBE thread. I wonder if it was also on a MOOG(hope so!)?

Ta,

Paul

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Piktor
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Re: RE: Mini / Multi - Home Recording (FX)?

Post by Piktor » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:28 pm

monsterjazzlicks wrote:
I don't think (as per usual!) I described my question accurately/properly. If so, then my wrong!

I meant (rather than as a pre-MIDI system), using the MULTI as a PROCESSOR of sorts. So not to trigger NOTES,but to just be able to shape/filter to timbre of the JUNO. In other words, something of a sophisticated FX UNIT/PEDAL (call it what you will). I you know what I mean. :)


Paul
Hi Paul,

First of all, my apologies if I kind of went off and tried to explain some things that you already knew. I'm not really obsessive; I'm actually a school teacher. :lol: Therefore, trying to explain things at multiple levels is a habit of mine. If you're arranging for jazz bands, obviously you know about saxophone tendencies.

Regarding the question above, I have used the Multimoog as a processor for other synths. Run the audio out of the second synth or other instrument into the Multi's audio input. You can choose to leave the Multi's oscillators on or, using the norm/drone/off switch, turn them off. This set up will not let you trigger the envelopes from the second keyboard, but you could do filter sweeps manually, etc. Long before I could afford a poly synth, I used to run a cheesy Philips organ or my friend's crappy DX9 through a chorus pedal and then through the Multi's filter. That worked for some pad sounds. Alternatively, you could trigger the Multi's envelopes with one hand pressing keys on the Multi while playing the Juno keys with the other. Don't forget to also try the Multi's sample and hold modulating the filter, while you play the Juno, or whatever else you are running into the Multi's audio.

The better(?) way to process other instruments through the Multimoog is using a midi to voltage control unit like the MPU 101 that I referred to previously. I had to acquire some weird jacks like a Cinch-Jones (sp?) plug to make some non-standard cords, but once I had everything set, the midi keyboard or sequencer could trigger envelopes, etc. on the Multi. I used that setup sometimes to add analogue filtering to a 1980s Yamaha FM synth.

Sorry to hear about you Multi's pitch ribbon problems. I've had some other issues with the Multi, though most everything seems to be working and sounding great now. I found a mention of the ribbon problem that you are having online. The post is old, but it might give you or a repair person some insight into your issue. (I suspect that it is not a super complex problem.) Just as a note, the person posting his comments about his ribbon issues does name a service technician that I have seen mentioned on this forum. It seems that that tech has a bad reputation.

Here is the link:
http://www.matrixsynth.com/2008/03/moog-multimoog.html

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Piktor
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Re: RE: Mini / Multi - Home Recording (FX)?

Post by Piktor » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:34 pm

monsterjazzlicks wrote:
Piktor wrote:You asked about the theme that I was improvising on in my YT video. I don't know if it is from a movie or not. If it is, I wasn't consciously doing that. The closest thing that I could think of is the theme from Love Story (old movie). Who knows?
Yes, there are a few hints towards LOVE STORY (a second inversion Minor triad [Minor 6th interval])! lol

But actually, it is from John Cavacas's theme tune for (the fantastic 70's film) HORROR EXPRESS! LINK on your YOU TUBE thread. I wonder if it was also on a MOOG(hope so!)?

Ta,

Paul
That's horrifying, or hilarious! :shock: Thanks for the chuckle.

P

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Re: RE: Mini / Multi - Home Recording (FX)?

Post by monsterjazzlicks » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:55 pm

Hi,

Thanks a lot mate.
Piktor wrote:Regarding the question above, I have used the Multimoog as a processor for other synths. Run the audio out of the second synth or other instrument into the Multi's audio input. You can choose to leave the Multi's oscillators on or, using the norm/drone/off switch, turn them off. This set up will not let you trigger the envelopes from the second keyboard, but you could do filter sweeps manually, etc. Long before I could afford a poly synth, I used to run a cheesy Philips organ or my friend's crappy DX9 through a chorus pedal and then through the Multi's filter. That worked for some pad sounds. Alternatively, you could trigger the Multi's envelopes with one hand pressing keys on the Multi while playing the Juno keys with the other. Don't forget to also try the Multi's sample and hold modulating the filter, while you play the Juno, or whatever else you are running into the Multi's audio.
I think my scenario (which I do plan to test out when my JUNO 6 comes out of it's mini service) would be to run the JUNO into the MULTI as you correctly describe. But NOT use any of the MULTI's AUDIO (ie switch the OSC OFF; I think you said switch it to TONE (which is quite different as you obviously will know for sure).

So I would only want to be manipulating the timbre of the JUNO (via the MULTI) but NOT using (hearing) the patch on the MULTI: only it's EFFECT on the JUNO.

So, would that work please? And if so, I am still very confused as to what happens (after I have fed the JUNO OUT into the MULTI IN) to the AUDIO SIGNAL PATH? Does it then have to go back (OUT from the MULTI) into the JUNO again, and then from the JUNO into the mixing desk?

Much appreciated,

Paul

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