Moog Music Forum

I posted a similar topic in the Moogerfooger forum, but no responses...

After working with GForce's Oddity2 (virtual ARP Odyssey), I was wondering if I could add features like FM, sync, and PWM to my vintage Minimoog with the FreqBox.

My inexperience with both CV and modular signal flow tells me this might be possible, but the Model D's lack of CV output has me thinking this might not yield the results I seek. I'd like the hard sync and precise control over pitch, not just distortion and squelches.

Could anyone with more knowledge and experience please weigh in? FYI, my MP-201 arrives this weekend. However, I don't have anything from the Moogerfooger line yet.

The Minimoog D can already do some FM with Osc 3 in the audio range modulating the pitch.

But I don't think Hard Sync and PWM will be possible by external means.

Hard Sync is a popular and relatively simple modification done on Minis. But I've never heard anyone doing a PWM mod on it, as it might require serious modifications to the Osc board.

And, as you mentioned, the Mini isn't particularely well equiped with CV ins, and no CV outs at all...

I don't know the Freqbox. Maybe it can simulate hard sync, PWM, and FM effects from an audio source ?

I own three Freqboxes for all kinds of use and it can be quite rewarding when put behind any synth. As you won't be able to do the clearer classic slow sweep sync sounds, a lot can be achieved with the envelope follower and thus the VCA envelope of the Mini to control the frequency of the Freqbox' OSC.

To get most out of the Freqbox it is crucial to understand the basic CV routing and features of the Freqbox as it is one of the more advanced foogers. One thing you need to get your head around is, that the Freqbox uses an fixed envelope follower to modulate its hidden VCA for the OSC sound.

Personally I find the Freqbox very rewarding, when you seek sounds that cut through a mix or to add a little extra grit and response on any signal source.

When using Pitch-CV out from a keyboard the Freqbox tracks usably well over a range of approx. 2 1/2 octaves. (tested with an Voyager OS though, which is a bit off the 1V/Oct mark)

thealien666 wrote:The Minimoog D can already do some FM with Osc 3 in the audio range modulating the pitch.

But I don't think Hard Sync and PWM will be possible by external means.

Hard Sync is a popular and relatively simple modification done on Minis. But I've never heard anyone doing a PWM mod on it, as it might require serious modifications to the Osc board.

And, as you mentioned, the Mini isn't particularely well equiped with CV ins, and no CV outs at all...

I don't know the Freqbox. Maybe it can simulate hard sync, PWM, and FM effects from an audio source ?

Yes, I've seen your own Minimoog sync mod from an earlier post, it looked and sounded great! I have to experiment with the OSC 3 FM and compare to what I get when using Oddity. I've read about that before, but forgot. When I use OSC 3 for modulation I always default to LFO.

snowcrash wrote:I own three Freqboxes for all kinds of use and it can be quite rewarding when put behind any synth. As you won't be able to do the clearer classic slow sweep sync sounds, a lot can be achieved with the envelope follower and thus the VCA envelope of the Mini to control the frequency of the Freqbox' OSC.

To get most out of the Freqbox it is crucial to understand the basic CV routing and features of the Freqbox as it is one of the more advanced foogers. One thing you need to get your head around is, that the Freqbox uses an fixed envelope follower to modulate its hidden VCA for the OSC sound.

Personally I find the Freqbox very rewarding, when you seek sounds that cut through a mix or to add a little extra grit and response on any signal source.

When using Pitch-CV out from a keyboard the Freqbox tracks usably well over a range of approx. 2 1/2 octaves. (tested with an Voyager OS though, which is a bit off the 1V/Oct mark)

I'm glad to hear you say it works well with the synth audio output. All demos I've seen in this set up are pretty dire. No one is playing anything melodic when using the audio out of a Voyager.

I suppose the sync could be useful if I keep the range of a melody simple, and tweak in real time with the MP-201? Not the tracking I'd get with CV out, but something manageable?

If I'm limited to going into the Moogerfoogers' audio input, I wonder how the FreqBox will be much different than the Ring Modulator.

thealien666 wrote:......Hard Sync is a popular and relatively simple modification done on Minis. But I've never heard anyone doing a PWM mod on it, as it might require serious modifications to the Osc board......

No, my mate, PW Mod IS possible to do, but you`ve to drill additional holes, and have to set all the needed pots and switches, the more you want to touch. And LOTS of wires to be connected inside.
And at the end the housing of you Mini will look like a porcupine outside.....
To avoid losing the overview, as you know from my special thread, I`ll reduce my Sync-Mod to minimum.
But unlike on the Rogue/T2 where the Amount of the Filter Contour affects the Filter opening/closing and the Sync simultanously, the AMOUNT of the Sync Sweep Contour will work INDEPENTLY after the Mod on my Mini.......

I didn't say PWM was impossible. Only, as you said, that it would require a more involved mod than the hard-sync one...

tonewheeltom wrote:I suppose the sync could be useful if I keep the range of a melody simple, and tweak in real time with the MP-201? Not the tracking I'd get with CV out, but something manageable?

Just start simple. Set the VCA-Env on the Mini with some decay to slightly above mid-level sustain. Then turn up Env-Amount on the Freqbox, so basically the frequency of the FB's oscillator will now follow the shape of your Mini's VCA-Envelope. Switch on sync and adjust the frequency knob on the FB to your liking. Above 12 o'clock you'll get the classic sync sound. It's important to switch off OSC 2 and 3 on the Mini as the synced OSC on the FB will respond to the phase of its audio input. When using beating OSCs on the Mini the FB will sound a bit uncontrolled and messy. (Which can be interesting by itself though.)

If I'm limited to going into the Moogerfoogers' audio input, I wonder how the FreqBox will be much different than the Ring Modulator.

Very much different to the Ring Mod! Ring Mod continuously flips the phase of the signal, whereas the FB's FM and synced OSC will be more of an additive nature.

Just get one and try it out, it's very hard to explain. But you really have to understand how the Freqbox works, there's loads of possibilities on how you can set it up and use it. With very different outcomes. It is not a one trick pony where you just adjust the controls a little to your liking. You need to understand the basic physics behind it to get most out of it. Expect a steep learning curve at first, but it will be worth it.

The Freqbox was intended to give guitar players the classic sync sound. When you watch the demo below you can get an idea how it sounds, with one important difference: it will sound much more stable with a synthesizer. Also the guitar provides the Env-Follower on the Freqbox with loads of dynamics to play with. On a synth like the Mini you'll need to compensate this with the VCA envelope which will work very well as I tried to explain above.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2Zw8p6chGg

snowcrash wrote:Just start simple. Set the VCA-Env on the Mini with some decay to slightly above mid-level sustain. Then turn up Env-Amount on the Freqbox, so basically the frequency of the FB's oscillator will now follow the shape of your Mini's VCA-Envelope. Switch on sync and adjust the frequency knob on the FB to your liking. Above 12 o'clock you'll get the classic sync sound. It's important to switch off OSC 2 and 3 on the Mini as the synced OSC on the FB will respond to the phase of its audio input. When using beating OSCs on the Mini the FB will sound a bit uncontrolled and messy. (Which can be interesting by itself though.)

Very much different to the Ring Mod! Ring Mod continuously flips the phase of the signal, whereas the FB's FM and synced OSC will be more of an additive nature.

Just get one and try it out, it's very hard to explain. But you really have to understand how the Freqbox works, there's loads of possibilities on how you can set it up and use it. With very different outcomes. It is not a one trick pony where you just adjust the controls a little to your liking. You need to understand the basic physics behind it to get most out of it. Expect a steep learning curve at first, but it will be worth it.

Thanks, that's a helpful tip about OSC 2 & 3. And that YouTube demo is one of the better ones with guitar I've seen. I did suspect the Mini through the FB would yield more predictable pitch results, so that's another good thing to confirm.

I do have a MF-102 on the way, looks like the 107 will be next!