I'm sure most of you saw this ?

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MC
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Re: I'm sure most of you saw this ?

Post by MC » Tue May 27, 2014 3:25 pm

EricK wrote:
MC wrote:Fender and Gibson have made ad nauseam variations of Strats and Les Pauls. Why shouldn't Moog?


That's not a valid argument.


Oh, sorry.

Marshall and Fender have made ad nauseam variations of their tube guitar amps for years.

Martin has made ad nauseam variations of their dreadnaught acoustic guitars for years.

The violin, the trumpet, the flute, the piano, and many other acoustic instruments have been made in ad nauseam variations for centuries.

Why shouldn't Moog?
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Re: I'm sure most of you saw this ?

Post by EricK » Tue May 27, 2014 3:51 pm

The argument is fallacious. Not only is it a false analogy, it is a tu quo que fallacy to point to another in defense of what I argue is not necessarily a good thing. Being fallacious it doesn't require an answer. :)

Fender and GIbson are not tiny companies like Moog.
The market for guitars is exponentially larger than the market for analog monosynths.
Guitars are totally different from Synthesizers. There are endless pickup wirings and neck/body combinations, wood configurations, and number of strings, all which play an important role in the tone and overall function of the instrument. Voyager changes are (for the most part) cosmetic.

Amps/cabinets, brass, woodwind, stringed, acoustic, and percussion instruments all depend on the sum of their parts to make a complete package. There is no functionally dependent change the Voyager can undergo lest it no longer be the Voyager. There is no student model Voyager.

The Select Series Voyager gave us 40 different versions of an otherwise identical instrument. Are you really arguing that there needs to be more? :)


A company is welcome to engage such marketing schemes, but when they do, they open themselves to criticism that they are failing to innovate.
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Re: I'm sure most of you saw this ?

Post by MC » Tue May 27, 2014 6:04 pm

You're missing my point.

Strats and Les Pauls are successful instrument designs that are widely accepted by musicians.

As is the Voyager which is a modern derivative of the model D.

Emu's Scott Wedge used to say that company size is a red herring. No argument that there are many more guitar players than analog synthesists. You also can't argue that Strats, Les Pauls, and Minimoogs are all accepted tools of the trade.

I see nothing wrong with Moog offering different finishes for Voyagers. The finish does not alter the tone of a Voyager, but it can alter the tone of a guitar.

But if people started screaming for a Voyager in "Hello Kitty" finish like Fender did for the Strat then we might be approaching fallacy :wink:

Sure the monophonic architecture is getting old. I'd love to see a polyphonic. I'm also a realist. The bar for analog polyphonic was set pretty high since instruments like the Andromeda. Every time a new polyphonic is introduced it is inevitably compared either by price or by features. Analog polyphonics are very dense in components. A Moog polyphonic would be so dense in hardware that the price would disappoint many people. Dave Smith ran into that with the Prophet 10 and the T8, and succeeding SCI products suffered from cost-cutting to compete in the market.

One can argue about failing to innovate, another can argue if the market can support it.
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Re: I'm sure most of you saw this ?

Post by Alien8 » Tue May 27, 2014 8:44 pm

Marylin Manson. Eminem. Howard Stern. Aluminum Voyager.

Change isn't a bad thing.

Cosmetics? I see aluminum as a decent alternative to wood for a structural replacement. Very strong, and light, doesn't look to bad after 100 years. As long as they have created a good seal between the dissimilar metals of the front plate and aluminum chassis, this version should last quite a while longer.

I personally like it. I also think that wood is becoming a precious resource (given that trees make oxygen) and an easily recyclable metal like aluminum is a better choice than epoxy, resin, carbon fibre etc.

Did anyone else catch that video a year or two back of a dude who took it upon himself to make an all aluminum voyager? If I remember correctly, he used his own voyager... Maybe Moog is helping out the little guy.

It would look nice next to a Mac book, even in a Canadian winter. Cosmetics do matter - just look at the start of my post.
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Re: I'm sure most of you saw this ?

Post by Vince Ascoli » Wed May 28, 2014 10:16 am

Peace be back at ya, my alien666 friend :) And please accept my apologies for blaming the great nation of Canada for what I perceived to be hurtful comments about my beautiful Aluminum, as well as my love of identical sounding Voyagers in different-colored clothing. Wait till you folks see the aluminum hat I had made to match!;)

Goofing aside...for my part, I'm totally enchanted with the cosmetic variety in Voyagers, and not any kind of purist with respect to them being made out of walnut or whatever to resemble the Model D or other 1970s-era Moog product. Love the lighted panels, the build quality and most of the available wood & light combinations. In addition to the Aluminum and Maple Jade, I'd love to add a black with red or amber panel, and/or a white with purple. Because I carry one and sometimes two to shows, I'm actually VERY interested in the possibility of a Voyager with some kind of high-impact, high quality plastic body in spite of the level of sacrilege this might represent to the purist. In fact, if we were trying to keep the level of Voyager redundancy down, a Voyager panel with the possibility or interchangeable bodies/cases might be kind of fun and would have a practical value to me...what if Hello Kitty had different outfits? :lol: I think bright plastic colors would look great on stage. Or sell the light-up panels separately, group four of them together, have Moog make a custom controller and have a four-voice wall of color, for hours of stage and studio fun...

In case anyone is interested to know, although 'weight-relieved', the Aluminum is definitely heavier than my Maple Jade by several pounds, I'd have to weigh it to be more accurate.
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Re: I'm sure most of you saw this ?

Post by Alien8 » Wed May 28, 2014 11:40 am

They should make a clear one next.
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Re: I'm sure most of you saw this ?

Post by MC » Wed May 28, 2014 6:33 pm

Alien8 wrote:They should make a clear one next.


Which will be very heavy. Plexiglass is denser and heavier than wood. At a NAMM show I picked up a bass guitar, then another of the same model made from clear plexiglass. HEAVY!
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Re: I'm sure most of you saw this ?

Post by robml » Thu May 29, 2014 1:03 am

EricK wrote:The argument is fallacious. Not only is it a false analogy, it is a tu quo que fallacy to point to another in defense of what I argue is not necessarily a good thing. Being fallacious it doesn't require an answer. :)


i think you got your fallacies in a muddle.

False Analogy: Cats can jump fences after eating cat food, so humans can to jump fences after eating cat food too.

unless you are trying to say the principles of selling dont apply to synths as they do to guitars, then it is not a false analogy.

Tu Quoque: "You hate cats so you cant come to the cat show with us!", "Tu Quoque- you hate cats too and you are going!"

its not tu quoque to say someones argument is not valid if they are not being hypocritical.

---------------------------

i remember when all mobile phones had green backlights. nokia put blue leds in backlight display- and put it on sale for $800. double the price of the green backlight model.
changing the led colour cost: $0
appealing to the market: priceless

moog will make money where it sees the most to be made. it also has a job to make sure the flagship product remains desirable. the techs are not working on this stuff, its the marketing people. im sure the techs are busy working away on new products.

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Re: I'm sure most of you saw this ?

Post by EricK » Thu May 29, 2014 4:11 am

robml wrote:i think you got your fallacies in a muddle.


There were too many dissimilarities (listed above) to make that a valid analogy.

The tu quoque fallacy isn’t so much about hypocrisy as it is about deflecting criticism of a behavior to another guilty party to justify the behavior.
“I’m no more racist than Jesse Jackson.”
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My original point wasn’t that repackaging the Voyager is a bad thing (Select Series Voyager owner here), but that there comes a point where one can no longer rationalize it with the argument that they have to do it simply to stay afloat. 
There have been so many versions of the Voyager, several of the Phatty, now the SubPhaty variations. When you look on different forums, Moog catches flack for this because there are a lot of requests people have made over the years for new stuff that never gets made. And then (and this is also more to my point) there is this focus on software apps and guitars and lap steel guitars, and now guitar pedals, and people want some new badass synths.
If you want envelope generators for your Fooger Synth you have to go somewhere else. If you want polyphonics, it’s looking like DSI is the solution.
People who buy Moog products don’t necessarily want to look elsewhere because they look for Moog to make top notch stuff with good customer service to boot. No one here wants to see Moog lose business to DSI when they complain about DSI filters.

It reaches a point where it is hard to question whether a polyphonic synth is risky in light of a $15k glam Voyager and a $50k+ Keith Emerson modular clone.
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Re: I'm sure most of you saw this ?

Post by robml » Thu May 29, 2014 5:02 am

EricK wrote:The tu quoque fallacy isn’t so much about hypocrisy as it is about deflecting criticism of a behavior to another guilty party to justify the behavior.


tu quoque is otherwise known as the "appeal to hypocrisy" - and translates from latin as "you, too" as a comeback to an accusation from a hypocrite.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

EricK wrote:My original point wasn’t that repackaging the Voyager is a bad thing (Select Series Voyager owner here), but that there comes a point where one can no longer rationalize it with the argument that they have to do it simply to stay afloat. 
There have been so many versions of the Voyager, several of the Phatty, now the SubPhaty variations. When you look on different forums, Moog catches flack for this because there are a lot of requests people have made over the years for new stuff that never gets made. And then (and this is also more to my point) there is this focus on software apps and guitars and lap steel guitars, and now guitar pedals, and people want some new badass synths.

If you want envelope generators for your Fooger Synth you have to go somewhere else. If you want polyphonics, it’s looking like DSI is the solution.
People who buy Moog products don’t necessarily want to look elsewhere because they look for Moog to make top notch stuff with good customer service to boot. No one here wants to see Moog lose business to DSI when they complain about DSI filters.

It reaches a point where it is hard to question whether a polyphonic synth is risky in light of a $15k glam Voyager and a $50k+ Keith Emerson modular clone.


i think you make a lot of good points.

i think we all want more and more gear from moog in the affordable range.

i dont agree about the polysynth. i do appreciate a lot of people are asking for one, but you see a lot of people saying they are not interested too.

cheers

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Re: I'm sure most of you saw this ?

Post by Kenneth » Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:09 am

EricK wrote:It reaches a point where it is hard to question whether a polyphonic synth is risky in light of a $15k glam Voyager and a $50k+ Keith Emerson modular clone.

This.
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Re: I'm sure most of you saw this ?

Post by Alien8 » Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:30 am

I was under the impression that the slim phatty chain was a decent poly?

As many of us have stated, Moog is a small company. To keep the boat floating while you do things like design a poly, or new foogers that haven't been done yet, the boat needs to float. Having another company design / build aluminum chassis is a good boat floating exercise to sell 100 voyagers. Our wants and needs depend on things keeping the boat floating.
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Re: I'm sure most of you saw this ?

Post by unfiltered37 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:57 am

I personally don't give a care (retro phrasing) what Moog releases. I used to get uncomfortable about their digital products, but come on, they are a company trying to make a profit. Whatever they can make that people want, even if it's a digital polysynth, who cares. It doesn't matter one bit. It doesn't make the products you like any worse, but if it does, obviously that is a psychological thing, and not their fault.

Yes, I have ranted about how Moog should never make a poly, especially a digital poly, but now I realize it's all just a manifestation of OCD. I think it just bothers people when a new version of what they already own comes out. It's like when a new version of software or a car or whatever comes out, it makes the older version seem inferior, even though they were perfectly happy with their version before.

But I have to admit, some of the pictures I have seen of the aluminum voyager are very cool. It doesn't look like a stereotypical Moog, but it looks very smart in it;s own right nevertheless. If you like your beautiful wood voyager, though, just imagine they came out with a voyager made out of shag carpet or something, that will make you appreciate it more.

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Re: I'm sure most of you saw this ?

Post by Alien8 » Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:41 pm

unfiltered37 wrote:I think it just bothers people when a new version of what they already own comes out. It's like when a new version of software or a car or whatever comes out, it makes the older version seem inferior, even though they were perfectly happy with their version before.


And there in-lies the entire con of man.

Think for yourself, while being FULLY aware of what one is thinking and how one's ego influences perspective. Then be open to it being totally wrong to another ego-perspective, and we would likely find peace.

The aluminum voyager appeals to my ego-perspective.
Vibration emanates from all things, even nothing. Using awareness to translate vibration into "music" is something that I am whole heartedly grateful for.

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