sub 37>>>next synth: sub voyager or poly?

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andrewh
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sub 37>>>next synth: sub voyager or poly?

Post by andrewh » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:44 pm

It seems to me that moog will go one of two directions with their next synth: either a more advanced synth using the sub 37 tech ( mod buss per osc, beat freq, multidrive etc) that is a step up from the sub 37 (so, maybe truly duophonic with two full signal paths), or they have arrived at the point where a polysynth is feasible. since the sub 37 is so cheap (many were expecting another 1k$), does it seem like they could make a four voice synth for around 3,000$? not counting the body/ keybed/ knobs, how much would a voice of sub 37 cost? I Imagine that it would interface nicely with a 4 voice rack unit, released one yr later of course, for those who want 8 voices.

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Re: sub 37>>>next synth: sub voyager or poly?

Post by Alien8 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:56 pm

Has anyone done a price per foot analysis on the Moog line of products? Is there an average cost per foot? What about the number of oscs per foot? Just sayin'. :mrgreen:
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Re: sub 37>>>next synth: sub voyager or poly?

Post by Kenneth » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:48 am

Good post!

The Voyager is getting old. It's been in production from 2002-present, which is a lot longer lifespan than most other analog monosynths have had. Longer in fact, than the life of the original Minimoog by five years. We are starting to see a lot of cheaper monosynths crop up with cool functionality not available on the Voyager (example: Sub 37). I think Moog could be developing something like the Voyager but with slightly updated functionality (two or more LFOs, maybe an arp/sequencer, more modern LCD screen, overload/distortion controls, and so on). Personally I love my Old School though, and probably would never sell it in favor of a new model.

A modern/reliable polyphonic Moog has always been fun to dream about, and I think maybe not so unrealistic now with the Sub 37 obviously having independent pitch control of two oscillators. We know Moog are capable of at least that, so what is to stop them from diving a little deeper and giving each oscillator its own amp/filter envelopes?
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Re: sub 37>>>next synth: sub voyager or poly?

Post by andrewh » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:44 am

the more I think about it, the more I think that the next design they release will be poly. that is, after 5 versions of the sub 37 (stage, select, rack, etc). I don't think that it makes sense for them to release a fully duophonic (2 full paths) synth because a lot of it would be overkill- would each voice have 2 syncable oscs, two mod busses and a sub oscillator as well as 2 of its own envelopes? It wouldn't fit on the front panel. In a mono mode, 2 suboscs and 4 envelopes might be a bit of overkill for most consumers, and the panel would be confusing, especially mod routing (can voice one's mod busses be assigned to modulate voice two's filter, can the four oscs be mixed into both filters, can oscs sync to any of the other 3, etc). unless it was laid out SEM style, two voices side by side (which Doesn't fit moog design aesthetic) or the complicated cross voice mod routing options were all deep in menus, I don't think that we'll see a fully duophonic sub 37, mainly because the panel would be either confusing or non-intuitive.
I also doubt we would see a tri-paraphonic voyager, since a 3rd mod bus on a voyager might be a bit much, probably other reasons too.
The paraphonic option on the sub 37 is kind of a red herring- I think that the sub 37 is pretty close to what a moog poly voice would look like, but of course the poly wouldn't have the paraphonic oscillator splitting option. A moog poly would potentially have the same signal path/ knobs/ voice as the sub 37, but with 61 keys, and some 4/8 voice sequencer/ programmer taking up the extra panel space, maybe with a mod ribbon or3rd mod wheel and chorus? I bet they come up with a 4 voice for 3 grand street.

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Re: sub 37>>>next synth: sub voyager or poly?

Post by weemac » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:16 am

Well there was the Model D, then the Voyager. Will the next one be the Minimoog Sub?
Not a great name, but if the voyager is retired, I'm sure there will be a new Minimoog of some sort that can still trace its DNA back to the Model D..
3 oscillators, wood case, Fatar keybed and ?

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Re: sub 37>>>next synth: sub voyager or poly?

Post by megavoice » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:58 pm

NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ..........NOT FOUR-VOICE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EIGHT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EIGHT !!!!!!!!!!!! EIGHT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....................PLEASE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: sub 37>>>next synth: sub voyager or poly?

Post by Cenydd Ros » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:31 pm

First off, I don't think the Voyager will ever be obsolete. It wasn't obsolete when Bob resurrected it from its original conception (the Minimoog) after decades of hiatus - and it will not be obsolete 30 years from now. No more so than a piano or a acoustic guitar will ever be obsolete.

But I do believe, and do want to see, Moog bring out some other synthesizers. Personally, I think they have just about beaten the whole bass synth thing to death. The Sub Phatty, Little Phatty, and now the Sub 37 - and let's not forget the Minitaur. Okay, bass synth is squared away. Time to move on.

What I want to see now is a polyphony synth to end all polyphony synths - and I think it should come from Moog. What I would like to see on it:
4 VCO's per voice.
10 voices (one for each of me fumbling digits, yah!)
Two dual filters (making for 4 filters in all), each with a dedicated ADSR
Multiple LFO's
Two VCA ADSR's
An expansive mixer
An onboard sequencer (24 step) with full hands on control (mucho knobs, yo)
A memory bay of about 1200 patches
61 or even 73 keys
A plush wood case and quality build
Complete (or near complete) real time control over all parameters (knobs, knobs, and more knobs)
A price tag under $6,000 US bones

Now, I know that's a big dream list, but if you're gonna dream, dream big. I even have a name for it, the Moog DecaDance.
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David Smyth
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Re: sub 37>>>next synth: sub voyager or poly?

Post by David Smyth » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:07 am

andrewh wrote:...unless it was laid out SEM style, two voices side by side (which Doesn't fit moog design aesthetic)...


This pretty much does exist - the Little/Slim Phatty Poly-Chain, the Voyager Poly-Chain, and soon, the Sub37/Sub Phatty Poly-Chain.. Maybe it's not in one case (in fact you have the option of tons of 19" rack case solutions), but it's the same idea as having multiple SEM's forming a poly system. Why should they put effort into developing yet another module-based poly system when these exist?

Maybe it's because I already own a poly-chain, but I'm more keen for Moog to make a sequencer (granted that's not really a 'next synth') to drive their range of synth offerings. This seems like the biggest gap in their product line, if you ask me.

On the note of new products, I wonder what the Moog Matador will turn out to be? viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21379

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Re: sub 37>>>next synth: sub voyager or poly?

Post by modoc_333 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:39 am

Cenydd Ros wrote:First off, I don't think the Voyager will ever be obsolete. It wasn't obsolete when Bob resurrected it from its original conception (the Minimoog) after decades of hiatus - and it will not be obsolete 30 years from now. No more so than a piano or a acoustic guitar will ever be obsolete.

But I do believe, and do want to see, Moog bring out some other synthesizers. Personally, I think they have just about beaten the whole bass synth thing to death. The Sub Phatty, Little Phatty, and now the Sub 37 - and let's not forget the Minitaur. Okay, bass synth is squared away. Time to move on.

What I want to see now is a polyphony synth to end all polyphony synths - and I think it should come from Moog. What I would like to see on it:
4 VCO's per voice.
10 voices (one for each of me fumbling digits, yah!)
Two dual filters (making for 4 filters in all), each with a dedicated ADSR
Multiple LFO's
Two VCA ADSR's
An expansive mixer
An onboard sequencer (24 step) with full hands on control (mucho knobs, yo)
A memory bay of about 1200 patches
61 or even 73 keys
A plush wood case and quality build
Complete (or near complete) real time control over all parameters (knobs, knobs, and more knobs)
A price tag under $6,000 US bones

Now, I know that's a big dream list, but if you're gonna dream, dream big. I even have a name for it, the Moog DecaDance.




it would take me a while to get my brain wrapped around all of that if I had one in front of me..... but MAN, IT WOULD BE COOL!
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fyvewytches
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Re: sub 37>>>next synth: sub voyager or poly?

Post by fyvewytches » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:59 am

Cenydd Ros wrote:Two dual filters (making for 4 filters in all), each with a dedicated ADSR
Two VCA ADSR's


Is this in addition to the 10 VCA EGs already included in your requested 10 voices ?
Only 4 filters for a 10 voice poly… that's not really a polyphonic synth then. For full polyphony each voice must have it's own filters, EG's, etc.
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Cenydd Ros
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Re: sub 37>>>next synth: sub voyager or poly?

Post by Cenydd Ros » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:43 pm

fyvewytches wrote:
Cenydd Ros wrote:Two dual filters (making for 4 filters in all), each with a dedicated ADSR
Two VCA ADSR's


Is this in addition to the 10 VCA EGs already included in your requested 10 voices ?
Only 4 filters for a 10 voice poly… that's not really a polyphonic synth then. For full polyphony each voice must have it's own filters, EG's, etc.


Two dual filters per voice. Hmmmm. Currently scratching various configurations down.

I know you can also poly-chain the Voyager, but at $3K per voice, that gets a little pricey. Although, it is something I am considering.

Then there is the Schmidt (or will be soon). I think Schmidt said, at NAMM, he is building the first 25. But, at $20K a piece, also very pricey.
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Re: sub 37>>>next synth: sub voyager or poly?

Post by thealien666 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:32 pm

I think anyone, myself included, who is waiting for a polyphonic Moog is actually deluding themselves. Moog probably still have fresh in mind the Polymoog disaster. Lots and lots of money spent on R&D and custom chips, and none of the awaited return on investment. To the point of bringing the old Moog company to the brink of bankruptcy. The Memorymoog wasn't profitable either and plagued with reliability problems eating away at profits with many returns on warranty of defective units.

So I think the current Moog Music will be veeeery prudent about investing time and money on developing a polyphonic synth, if ever.

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Last edited by thealien666 on Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: sub 37>>>next synth: sub voyager or poly?

Post by megavoice » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:35 pm

thealien666 wrote:I think anyone, myself included, who's waiting for a polyphonic Moog is actually deluding themselves. Moog probably still have fresh in mind the Polymoog disaster. Lots and lots of money spend in R&D and custom chips, and none of the return on investment awaited. To the point of bringing the old Moog company to the brink of bankruptcy. The Memorymoog wasn't profitable either and plagued with reliability problems eating away at profits with many returns on warranty of defective units.

So I think the current Moog Music will be veeeery prudent about investing time and money on developing a polyphonic synth, if ever.


They're prudent at any rate, but what I won't understand so much is we've now 2014, more than 30 years later.
Electronics have advanced, people have made experiences. Probably techniques haven't advanced as needed ?
And yes, we havn't that masses of people who are skilled and/or feel challenged to play a big polyphonic keyboard..................And people who'd like to go to a show and like to watch them playing.......
It's always the same.......if there's no predictable profit, we're gonna have to wait.....and wait... and wait.....in vain ?....................
When I'm also thinking about the young bands I'm watching occasionally on TV, there's always a young man standing behind an ultra small one or two octave keyboard on a crossed leg stand and pressing some buttons from time to time without playing.
It seems to be there's no future....................................?
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Re: sub 37>>>next synth: sub voyager or poly?

Post by MC » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:09 pm

thealien666 wrote:I think anyone, myself included, who's waiting for a polyphonic Moog is actually deluding themselves. Moog probably still have fresh in mind the Polymoog disaster. Lots and lots of money spend in R&D and custom chips, and none of the return on investment awaited. To the point of bringing the old Moog company to the brink of bankruptcy. The Memorymoog wasn't profitable either and plagued with reliability problems eating away at profits with many returns on warranty of defective units.

So I think the current Moog Music will be veeeery prudent about investing time and money on developing a polyphonic synth, if ever.


There's a right way and a wrong way to build a polyphonic. I offered my input on a polyphonic when they invited me down for the T3 project. They didn't confirm or deny anything on the matter so I said no more on the topic.

The Polymoog ultimately turned out to be the wrong way. Nobody knew it at the time. Polyphonic synthesizers didn't exist back then. Everyone was racing to be the first to market with a polyphonic.

The Memorymoog was the right approach but it was doomed when the inferior interconnects caused reliability problems.

Build a polyphonic the right way and you can profit from them.
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Re: sub 37>>>next synth: sub voyager or poly?

Post by EricK » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:59 pm

I don't think people are deluding themselves if they think Moog will make a poly in the future. A lot of people have spoken in absolute terms that Moog won't and what evidence does anyone have to base that assertion off of (besides the fact there hasn't been a poly yet)?

They already made a theremin based off of the Animoog synth engine. Who is to say they won't do one with digital oscillators?

Thinking that Moog won't make a polysynth because DSI has is like assuming Yamaha won't make a workstation because Korg and Roland do.

These are interesting times for analog synths, Arturia has jumped in the market, Korg has taken some bold leaps. It's just a matter of time and it might be sooner than some of you think.
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