new synth vs. vintage

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thewaag
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Post by thewaag » Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:38 pm

I find the MMV too distracting; moving from one view to the other. I enjoy having all the REAL knobs sitting right in front of me, ready to be tweaked when I want them. Switching from window to window messes up the creative moment for me, which is undoubtedly a personal thing.

Also, having too many presets can be distracting--how many presets do you have to preview to find "just the right sound" for your needs? On something like Reason, where you can choose between different samplers and different synths, it can constipate you instead of free up your creativity. It is definitely better to learn how to create your own sounds to fit what you hear in your head.

On the other hand, what I like about presets is that in hearing one, it can suddenly spark an idea in your head and you can run with it from there. Just last night, I had very little time to play, so I just sat at my Andromeda and started playing different programs and mixes. Many gave me great ideas for new material that I will be working on for weeks to come.
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Re: Elitist Bastard

Post by Sweep » Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:49 pm

museslave wrote:You're right, let me retract part of what I'm saying... those people who implement software synths in a fashion without using the presets should not be included in my complaint.
However, I still suggest that software, with all of its convenience, stability, low-cost, and digital sound is not the same experience as a hardware modular.


[etc]

Yes, I think between us we're establishing something. In particular I think you've hit the nail precisely on the head when you distinguish between patch memories and presets. It's the use of presets that makes for a lazy and non-creative attitude to synth playing. With that in mind I'd return to my point about the player's attitude. I think it's crucial that patches don't get dumbed down into presets. A patch becomes a preset when it's used blindly and uncreatively.

I'd agree that marketing tends to aim at the preset mentality. But really, that's where much of the market is. That's unfortunate in one way, but the fact that there is such a market keeps prices down and makes it easier for the creative ones amongst us to afford these instruments. The fact that something like the Arturia Modular V has so many creative possibiities for those of us who are willing and motivated to explore them makes that instrument worthwhile. It's cheap and widely available because a lot of unimaginative people will buy it as well, but that really needn't concern us. I think if the design of an instrument is poor because it's aimed at the preset mentality then we're losing something, but if the design is open enough for us to really make creative use of it then it doesn't matter what other people do.

Wide avilability will always mean more bad music. But it also increases the amount of good music. people who could never have afforded a Moog modular now have something approaching one, even if it isn't quite the same as the `real' thing. I know one very creative and talented synth player who's been pushing back the boundaries for decades, starting with the earliest analogue monosynths. He's never been in the Moog modular financial bracket but he now has the Arturuia and I look forward very much to what he's going to do with it. The fact is, that piece of software has given a great musician something he wouldn't otherwise have had access to.

I'm sure the Modular V isn't the same as having a hardware Moog modular. It crossed my mind to consider if I could raise the 20,000 Euros that Klaus Schulze was asking for his Moog modular, but I decided I couldn't. But I'm very glad the Modular V gives me at least some approach to the same sonic areas. It adds tremendously to what my Voyager can do.

I agree with TheWaag as well about the incovenience of having to scroll between screens when using the Modular V. On the other hand, Klaus' modular wouldn't have fitted into my studio and would have had to sit in an adjoining room, so maybe things are never really rosy. At the end of the day I'd much rather scroll between screens to access more sonic possibilities than not need to scroll between screens because there are no more options on the next screen. Nothing is perfect. And I'd rather have something imperfect that I can use than know there was something perfect somewhere else that I'd never have access to.

In a perfect world there'd be a massive Moog modular that my studio would contain comfortably. It'd be polyphonic, have patch memories, and be ultra-stable. But that just isn't going to happen, and the Modular V comes a reasonably close second.

I can't see the original post from here, but I wonder, is the real question behind this discussion as it's now developed something like:

Why do so many synth players today want everything to be given to them for nothing? And did we get better music when people had to work harder to make a sound from a synth?

Please amend that version of the question or throw it out if it isn't helpful. For my part, I think that attitude has always been there, but it seems to have reached epic proportions today. In music it's not only a synth problem, but also a problem with looping and cut and paste software that promises the abilitry to make music without any creative effort. And that really is a false promise, because music simply doesn't exist without creative effort. But again, for every creative musician there'll be a multitude of posers and copyists.

I do wish more younger people were creating innovative new music, though. I'm sure I've reached an age where I should need to make an effort to understand the new ideas of the next generation.

OysterRock
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Post by OysterRock » Thu Dec 15, 2005 4:33 am

Geez, you guys need to get off the internet and turn on your Moogs! :)

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museslave
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Post by museslave » Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:19 pm

Oysterrock, you're right. A day without my Mini powered up at least ONCE is a day wasted. : )

musicnonstop
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Re: new synth vs. vintage

Post by musicnonstop » Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:16 pm

Digory wrote:has anyone ever noticed that there are a lot of people who just worship moog synthesizers, or vintage synthesizers in general. but all they own is new stuff. they have a nord lead and a micro korg and they just won't shut up about moog.


that was me 6 weeks ago. sold the micro and replaced with a voyager. i thought the nord was a good synth ( and it still is) but the voyager is so much better!

EricK
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Re: new synth vs. vintage

Post by EricK » Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:40 pm

Digory wrote:has anyone ever noticed that there are a lot of people who just worship moog synthesizers, or vintage synthesizers in general. but all they own is new stuff. they have a nord lead and a micro korg and they just won't shut up about moog. as was pointed out in an earlier thread, the price range between these synths is not that vast. and they really are just as durable as anything new. do you think that maybe people are afraid to let go of their new stuff (that has built in effects, sequencers, arpeggiators, etc.) for somthing that is basically just you and your imagination? you know what i mean?

i remeber when i was about 12 i had this really crazy, brand new yamaha keyboard that did everything. even when i got some vintage stuff (like a prodigy) i still used the yamaha to record and just recorded little moog things over top of it. so when i (unexpectedly) got a really good offer to sell the yamaha i was scared to have to do everything myself from scratch with just a prodigy, juno6 and a drum machine. but i sold the yamaha, mostly because i was too embarassed not too. and when i was thrown into the deep end i discovered i could swim! true story.



Funny stuff. I thought i might be alone in worshipping Moog. I guess i don't need perscription medications afterall. :lol:
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EricK
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Post by EricK » Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:48 pm

Boeing 737-400 wrote:How about vintage digital vs modern analogue?


WHat about the vintage analogue that were digitally controlled? :shock:
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latigid on
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Post by latigid on » Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:05 pm

Yeah and how do I get my Voyager to sound digital?

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latigid on
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Post by latigid on » Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:21 pm

Just kidding...

Anyway, I think the best place for analogue gear is LIVE! I say this because you could have a lovely Voyager patch, but when you record it, unless you're using reel to reel, (anyone?) you've instantly gone A -> D.

Live on the on the other hand, everything is on the line. With the right system, a Moog will fill up a room/whatever in a way that only an analogue synth can.

I don't like it how digital "invents" the sound between samples. And analogue emulating digitals really only add low level distortion and saturation, as far as I know of course.

Come to think of it, if digitals are so good, why must they emulate analogues?

endocrine
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Post by endocrine » Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:26 pm

I like it when companies just slap the word digital on a product to make it sound better. 9 out of 10 times that product would be better analog (ie- cameras, video cameras, music devices, etc.)

Reel to reel tape recently went out of production, correct?
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latigid on
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Post by latigid on » Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:31 am

Yep, a good example could be Boss delays. The red (analogue) ones were called "Delay." Then the digital ones came out and were called "Digital Delay." Funny they didn't call it "Analog Delay..." Oh well.

Anna's Digit
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Post by Anna's Digit » Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:39 am

vintage
Who 'em i ? who are you ?
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Voltor07
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Post by Voltor07 » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:52 pm

Great thread, even though it's really really old. :lol: I particularly liked the comment about the Rolakorgaha. :lol: I totally have to build one just to say I have one. Thanks to Music-Go-Round, I can probably do it for less than a grand. I'll need a Roland, Korg, and Yamaha, probably a PSR model, and in typical circuit bending fashion, wire them all together. If I REALLY want to go all out I can build a Rolankorgnordaha. Or even a Casiokorgnordrolanaha. :lol:
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RichardK
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Re: new synth vs. vintage

Post by RichardK » Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:45 pm

Digory wrote:has anyone ever noticed that there are a lot of people who just worship moog synthesizers, or vintage synthesizers in general. but all they own is new stuff. they have a nord lead and a micro korg and they just won't shut up about moog.


Old kit has a halo effect. Bands we loved used the gear and we lusted after it, wanted it.

But there's a funny thing.

You notice how violins and stuff haven't really changed much?

Analogue synths are like that.

Digital stuff has continued to improve. Nord Leads are not as good as modern Nords or other VA synths. Many VA synths ARE rendered obsolete.

So people may still lust after an analogue Moog; my Voyager and etc. would cost £3,000 new now; that's a lot of scratch as some people would say, and at the risk of heresy, I reckon my Virus can do more and most of what the Voyager does. It's not as nice to use and there's that final bit, but in a mix... eh, who's going to know. The Voyager is for the performer, the other stuff, it's for the producer.

After years of genuinely classic gear, some worthless, some not, I made a decision. I'm not a curator. I'm not a historian. I just want to play keyboards.

Same thing happened with my cars and now I have a new one with a warranty.

I love my Moog, though :D
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ColorForm2113
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Post by ColorForm2113 » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:11 pm

martin wrote:
still waiting for that fun, well-designed, easy-to-use musical instrument that encourages me to practice and play. and only needs the odd new button or re-tuning every 2-5 years.
I think what your looking for is the voyager old school...that they are discontinuing :cry:

And as for the new vs old debate, none of my synths are really new but I have my analog (micro moog) , analog/digital hybrid (korg poly800) and digital (casio cz5000) they all continue to inspire me in different ways. I started off as kind of an analog snob but have found a deep appreiciation for digital synths (some of them). Each synth can do something one of the other can't. So new vs old. Who wins? Who ever learns to enjoy an instrument for what it is , and not for what name badge is painted or glued on to it

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