new synth vs. vintage

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sir_dss
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Post by sir_dss » Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:10 pm

C'mon man...

Don't start trouble dude.

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ikazlar
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Post by ikazlar » Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:56 pm

I don't really disagree with anyone's post on this subject, except for the fact that that one guy said :

"I got a better Bass patch out of a Triton, than on a Mini"..

Very hard to believe, but I guess anything is possible with a computer like that thing


This is not *exactly* what i wrote. Of course it was hard to believe. It still is. Even for me. Isn't this what i said? It is so freaking bassy, with dual modes: one standard, one with comb filter, 2 note-unison and detune, and no-retrigering. What makes it massive is that very shortly, after the initial attack, the cutoff drops, and there's an envelope to give some resonance. It shakes the windows even with low volume. It's so massive that it's unusable. I recorded it digitally from Extreme's SPDIF out into SoundForge to see the waveform and there are points where it doesn't cross the 0 level! I haven't seen such a waveform before. :shock: (Maybe I can post some pics). It's very untamed and definitely needs EQ to sit in a mix.

Probably you could achieve the same effect with a Voyager. The secret here, as I believe with almost all bass sounds, is how you use the envelopes. You can do another trick with an Andromeda if you offset the envelopes and adjust the times accordingly. This gives MUCH more snappy envelopes, (with less or no audible clicks) and more over (and this is the trick here) both the attack and decay times are clipped, thus forming a Sustain level of short duration which can provide LOTS of oomph. It is pretty tricky to adjust but it can be done.

So, as I said before, trust your ears.
8)
Last edited by ikazlar on Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ikazlar
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Post by ikazlar » Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:00 pm

And now that I am thinking maybe I could filter the Extreme with something analog.

:shock: :shock: :shock:

thewaag
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Post by thewaag » Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:56 pm

For me, there is something magic about Moog. It was the sound that I fell in love with when I first heard Lucky Man, and then on countless recordings ever since. It is funny, then, that I owned just about every ARP that you could have in those early years. We did not have a Moog dealer in Portland. I am crazy enough about Moog that I want to buy a custom leather Jacket with the Moog logo on it (I'll have to OK it with the folks at Moog to use their logo). I wouldn't consider doing this for ARP, Roland, Korg, Sequentiao Circuits, Oberheim, etc. Maybe Fender, though.

But when it was time to purchase a Poly synth, I purchased an Alesis Andromeda. I would LOVE to have a Memorymoog, but I fear that it could kill me in repair bills. I am not an EE, so every little problem has to go to a tech. How many good techs are around for that type of synth, and how many parts are still available? I have a buggy Source that works fine for a month and then fritzes for a month. I will eventually have to break down and pay a tech to fix it.

The Andromeda is newer technology, so I don't worry about parts as much. There are people around that are Alesis approved techs, and the newer synth hopefully will not have any problems for years. It killed me to not buy my long wanted Memorymoog, but I love the Andromeda and it is actually a lot more flexible than the MM (at least it will be when I figure it all out). Would love to have a LAMM, but who can afford that with a kid in college......

I have digital as well, and I love some of the sounds I get from those synthesizers too, but it is not the same as playing an analog and grabbing a knob or two and really cranking the sound around in real time. I am not a lover of menus anyway.

Even though it is somewhat limited in it's function, my favorite is still the old Model D. Nothing sounds like it and nothing is as simple and easy to work with.

As I said...magic!
Thanks Bob!!

Boeing 737-400
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Post by Boeing 737-400 » Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:10 pm

One of the things I've never got round doing is playing my Voyager when high.

electrical_engineer_gEEk
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Post by electrical_engineer_gEEk » Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:53 pm

Boeing 737-400 wrote:One of the things I've never got round doing is playing my Voyager when high.


I think i've only played my moog sober once...maybe twice counting the time i purchased it

martin
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Post by martin » Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:44 pm

interesting discussion with many different opinions.

i can't really detect a snob attitude in any of these postings though. au contraire, mon capitain. i think that most synth players have a fairly democratic approach to technology today. consider also that recording technology is, quality-wise, pretty much unsurpassed. most of us probably own some sort of hard disk multitrack machine or someting like that. my mickey-mouse tape recorder went out the window ages ago. and yep, i loved it to bits, literally.

sometimes i don't even bother with mixing to hd anymore but record analog moog sounds straight to mp3 with my tiny iriver thing. sure there's loss, but it doesn't really matter. it all goes online anyways. who wants big fat wav files?

i just wanted to point out that most of the time any instrument can be useful, analog, digital, hybrid, wood, no wood, whatever. the creamware minimax has wood. had i not bought a voyager, i'd have probably gone for a minimax as it has less gadgetry and pretty much looks and feels like a mini. even if it may not be a signature edition voyager, it looks like it's fun to play. and that's precisely what i am looking for in any instrument.
yep, wood is a good thing.

a few years ago i bought something called rubber duck, a kind of sequencer software. just a few days ago i found it free of charge for download somewhere. when i first bought it i loved it. today, i didn't enjoy it that much even though my pc is way faster. i just think i got used to tweakery and fiddlery and found out that oldskool software is not as user friendly and intuitive as, say, a cyclodon-minimax combo!

i too think that moogs have magic, that's why i got one and went through the shlepp of being utterly shattered and disappointed and getting it updated and repaired. but i also had my other gear fixed over the years, which is mostly digital and low budget stuff.

so if any of the moog folks are eavesdropping here, stop dropping your eaves all over the place and build a smaller synth without so much complicated stuff inside, ok? you know you can do it! come on! :lol:

(and if you're having fun doing that, just put a *digital* 16 step sequencer in it if it makes it more affordable and works well, eh?)

:twisted:

ebg31
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Post by ebg31 » Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:47 am

I'm sorry, but I simply don't get the merritt of playing a Moog while intoxicated - with the obvious exception of how the bloody thing can lift your spirits while you're playing it. There definitely is something about the Moog name that carries more than just a sound.
"The greatest thing we ever have is the will to survive," - Eric Benjamin Gordon, 2001

Thank you Lord for Doctor Robert Moog!

http://www.ericbenjamingordon.com
http://www.myspace.com/ericbenjamingordon
http://cdbaby.com/cd/ebgordon

martin
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Post by martin » Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:15 pm

when i had piano lessons as a kid in russia, i was tought always to wash my hands before playing. i still do that today, before playing my synthesizers. being drunk while playing would contravene my strict code of synthesizer playing conduct in a big way.
:wink:
an instrument like a synthesizer is expensive, and it's a special part of my life. it commands respect, and lots of practice. it's not just a tool, it's a means of communication. just as it's not polite to burp in the phone, drinking and playing will probably have a bad effect on the playing technique.

but then again, as the folks in cologne say: jeder jeck is anders. look it up.
:lol:

endocrine
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Post by endocrine » Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:47 pm

Playing high is not about the keyboard. It's about the knobs. When sober, the synth is amazing. It can do anything. When high, everything is amazing. Thus, it makes amazing things phenomenal! When drunk, it's confusing and upsetting. High and drunk are totally different.
-Tyler2000-
"You can't touch me 'cause your hands are made of metal."
-Alabama Jihad

Boeing 737-400
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Post by Boeing 737-400 » Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:57 pm

Indeed they are. Just make sure you ain't smoking any spliffs near your equipment! :D

martin
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Post by martin » Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:37 am

i always play high, i live on the sixth floor. the highest floor in the building!

endocrine
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Post by endocrine » Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:06 pm

martin wrote:i always play high, i live on the sixth floor. the highest floor in the building!


Oh wow. That's aweful.

Boeing 737-400 wrote:Indeed they are. Just make sure you ain't smoking any spliffs near your equipment! :D


I would sooner die than smoke near my stuff.

-Tyler2000-
"You can't touch me 'cause your hands are made of metal."
-Alabama Jihad

godzilla
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Post by godzilla » Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:22 am

for me it mostly depends on the interface.

i like using old 70's synths because everything is laid out and you have instant full control over every function, i like the sound of the my dx synths but i hardly use them because they're not as fun/rewarding to play. Most modern synths are not only synths either, they double or triple up as samplers, sequencers, effects etc. I prefer using more archetypal creative tools, like super8 movie cameras and analog synths.

I think people like to play whilst being high because it makes everthing really rewarding as your senses collide.

Try playing theremin high, now that really is something!

martin
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Post by martin » Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:30 am

could a joke be any worse? no.

i agree with what godzilla says. pretty much every knob had 1 function. things were easy to understand and the process of soundmaking was limited.
today, every parameter has subparameters which have 4 layers of subparameters. aaargh! too many parameters! must.. shut... down.. bzzz. klunk.
i think what i'd like to see is the introduction of instruments that have only musical parameters, and virtually no technical ones.

before playing...
pianos need tuning.
guitars need new strings.
with a flute you need to empty the spit receptacle.

many synths are sdifferent:
with a synth you need to update an os, program 1000 sounds, build in a new contraption for new functions, make sure you have a pc for up- and downloading new information, you need to have electricity, it has to have cables connected to a speaker, amp, mixer, headphones. you need software, extra hardware, etc etc etc. many synthesizers look horrible. look at a balalaika. what a pretty thing! or a cello! the moog is more aesthetic. but read the forums. update to new os - no sounds. problems with this. problams with that. how do i do this? where can i find info on that. ask this man. ask that man. the original documentation is lacking anmany ways. ship the instrument for upgrades, repairs. pay more money to this guy. pay delivery costs to that guy. who is going to deal with the rest of life with al this stuff going on? next thing, you have a divorce on top of your headache.

software per se, although graphically usefully crafted, is the most visually unappealing instrument. every single one is ugly in my opinion. i have yet to see a beautiful and simple, yet well-designed and intuitive piece of software. they are, as far as i have experienced so far, complicated and prone to conflict or bring up problems at some point.

why does everything have to be so complicated? keep it simple. make room for music. encourage the player to make nice sounds with the instrument.

can you imagine going to a restaurant, ordering a meal, and the cook comes out and brings you only side dishes and a little camping stove so you can cook the rest of the stuff yourself? and allows you to upgrade to the consumption of wine for a fee, but offers only one glass for a party of three? that's what music making feels like with most electronic equipment these days, in my experience. you have to pay for each part of the meal with a separate bill, you register as a member with the restaurant. you have to have passwords, usernames, type in a pin number into a device the cook doesn't even master himself.
and at the end of the night, you want to jump from the balcony for sheer frustration.

ecch.

still waiting for that fun, well-designed, easy-to-use musical instrument that encourages me to practice and play. and only needs the odd new button or re-tuning every 2-5 years.

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