Hello Martin,
I think there are not that many broken Voyagers that need a repair job. And each special trained Voayger technician needs enough new clients to get his bill paid. Or do you think Moog should pay techs for joining a 1 day repair training?
I haven't seen as many Porsche or Ferrari repair garages as VW's, Opel's or Ford's. And do Porshce or Ferrari buyers complain about so few techs for their cars?
My guess is, that there are as many Voyagers her in Germany as Porsche cars sold in Germany in a single month. And as many as all Ferrari cars with german licence plates.
See the wooden housing: is there another synth in a lower price range with such a beautiful crafted real wooden housing?
Is there a single analogue synth with more part inside that all need to be soldered?
Name me a single full analog synth with patchmemory still being available. And of cause lower in price. Please be fair, and don't name synth with digital created envelopes or DCOs.
Martin, please don't complain. If your dealer treated you like s_hit, it's not Moog's fault. Only the original error was Moog Music's fault. And even a Rolls Royce might break down during the first miles. S_hit happens.
Over Priced
Look at how this Narc has to try pulling his power trip here , i give a rats ass what some narc like you has to say about music or musical instruments! The only illusion here is that you are a musician.Lengai wrote:
Once again you've tipped your cards. If you are not a typical amateur musician and you can play circles around Oyster, why are you the one working in a music store? The only person taking themself waaaaaaaaay too seriously is you. The people on this forum have tolerated your immaturity even though you repeatedly attempt to hit below the belt. But, creating an emotional reaction to feebly justify your inadequte existence by creating the illusion of power has been your intent the whole time.
speak for yourself narc
OK, folks, I just want to say again that i am not trying to complain - the initial question was is the MMV overpriced? I don't think so, considering now that the vast majority of V's sold are kosher.
"do you think Moog should pay techs for joining a 1 day repair training?"
If it's that's all it takes to become a moog certified repeairperson, then why not? as i said, right now the repair demand is very low. but it will increase, believe me. maybe not in the next 3 days, but as the voyager goes on its voyage thru live and other lifestages, you will find more and more people asking, where can i get decent service.
new bmws and ferraris don't need service every day either, but they do occasionally.
i don't particularly like the analogy with cars though. cars are more widespread than moogs.
the idea is probably the rarity and cost of something.
what i am not going to pass is that moog did not test and doublecheck the early units - and that was most likely due to the wich to sell these things. at our cost and to the disadvantage of a few people who made that commitment.
as for the uk distributor, i have little respect for their handling of these cases.
hey, but as i tried to point pout earlier, i didn't want to sound niggly and whiney. sorry if this sounds that way. i am just waiting for some kind of thank you from moog. probably will never get it. maybe because i am not a pro? maybe because i want to make my issues public? i am trying to promote better business, not an anti-moog sentiment.
moog rocks. the voyager rocks. music is good.
but please, please, please, don't ship any faulty units. ok?
"do you think Moog should pay techs for joining a 1 day repair training?"
If it's that's all it takes to become a moog certified repeairperson, then why not? as i said, right now the repair demand is very low. but it will increase, believe me. maybe not in the next 3 days, but as the voyager goes on its voyage thru live and other lifestages, you will find more and more people asking, where can i get decent service.
new bmws and ferraris don't need service every day either, but they do occasionally.
i don't particularly like the analogy with cars though. cars are more widespread than moogs.
the idea is probably the rarity and cost of something.
what i am not going to pass is that moog did not test and doublecheck the early units - and that was most likely due to the wich to sell these things. at our cost and to the disadvantage of a few people who made that commitment.
as for the uk distributor, i have little respect for their handling of these cases.
hey, but as i tried to point pout earlier, i didn't want to sound niggly and whiney. sorry if this sounds that way. i am just waiting for some kind of thank you from moog. probably will never get it. maybe because i am not a pro? maybe because i want to make my issues public? i am trying to promote better business, not an anti-moog sentiment.
moog rocks. the voyager rocks. music is good.
but please, please, please, don't ship any faulty units. ok?
Martin:
Fair enough. I'd say the middle ground is that there would be a centralized Moog Service Center somwhere in Europe where everyone could send their Voyager in for service, and get it returned in a reasonable amount of time. I would dislike sending any of my gear out too, so I can fully appreciate what you're saying. I think it pays to wait awhile to buy into an instrument. That's not good for music mfg., but it's good for the buyer. I waited until the Motif ES was out more than a year before I bought mine. I waited until Alesis had made enough changes to the their OS to address the problems with the earlier units. Neither synth has given me any trouble. I'm not in the $$$ position to send things out for warranty service, so I tend to wait until something is on the market and proven reliable. I have no choice but to buy over the Internet, the local dealers are pretty clueless and don't offer service. Why would I buy from them?
The only regional dealer I buy from has a top notch tech, so I buy from them. I would buy more things from them, but their product line is limited to two mfg. That's the way it goes.
Mike T.
Fair enough. I'd say the middle ground is that there would be a centralized Moog Service Center somwhere in Europe where everyone could send their Voyager in for service, and get it returned in a reasonable amount of time. I would dislike sending any of my gear out too, so I can fully appreciate what you're saying. I think it pays to wait awhile to buy into an instrument. That's not good for music mfg., but it's good for the buyer. I waited until the Motif ES was out more than a year before I bought mine. I waited until Alesis had made enough changes to the their OS to address the problems with the earlier units. Neither synth has given me any trouble. I'm not in the $$$ position to send things out for warranty service, so I tend to wait until something is on the market and proven reliable. I have no choice but to buy over the Internet, the local dealers are pretty clueless and don't offer service. Why would I buy from them?
The only regional dealer I buy from has a top notch tech, so I buy from them. I would buy more things from them, but their product line is limited to two mfg. That's the way it goes.
Mike T.
Suede, please quit talking that way. In fact, both of you need to shut up. This is a discussion forum, not a cyber-debate forum. Now cool it, both of you.suede wrote: Look at how this Narc has to try pulling his power trip here , i give a rats ass what some narc like you has to say about music or musical instruments! The only illusion here is that you are a musician.
speak for yourself narc
The cost of this instrument isn't important enough to start a war over, okay?
"The greatest thing we ever have is the will to survive," - Eric Benjamin Gordon, 2001
Thank you Lord for Doctor Robert Moog!
http://www.ericbenjamingordon.com
http://www.myspace.com/ericbenjamingordon
http://cdbaby.com/cd/ebgordon
Thank you Lord for Doctor Robert Moog!
http://www.ericbenjamingordon.com
http://www.myspace.com/ericbenjamingordon
http://cdbaby.com/cd/ebgordon
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Kevin Lightner
- Posts: 1587
- Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:20 pm
- Location: Wrightwood
"do you think Moog should pay techs for joining a 1 day repair training?"
If it's that's all it takes to become a moog certified repeairperson, then why not?
It would appear that you're underestimating things.
1 day is hardly enough to cover all the ground necessary.
A tech both needs to know how an instrument works, how to calibrate it, repair it, fault diagnosis, the procedure for parts ordering or warranty reimbursements, etc.
Moog likely uses special test jigs for boards that service centers wouldn't have too.
Playing the guitar looks easier to me than fixing a Voyager.
How much could I learn in 1 day from guitar lessons though?
Exactly. That's why there's colleges teaching auto repair, unlike musical electronics.cars are more widespread than moogs.
Point being: a person can be trained, certified and licensed to do auto repair.
You can't enroll in any college class that I know of to do synth repair, certification is up to each manufacturer and there's no one to yank a license from you if you lie about your abilities, experience, etc.
A good service center application requests what insurance coverage a shop has, for example.
Believe it or not, many have none whatsoever.
High speed digital test gear may be necessary that's very expensive.
A certain amount of stock parts might be required and every year, the world of available parts explodes. ie: it's getting increasingly hard to have what parts are needed on hand and in stock.
So, Moog could advertise a 1 day service seminar and a handful of techs would get a tour, some question and answer period, some materials, a rundown of the voyager architecture, etc. But these techs would be paying many hundreds each to attend due to transportation costs and how many Voyagers would they then encounter later? Moog has sold very few compared to the big makers and a tiny percentage have failures.
Fwiw, as sales increase, demand will increase and changes likely made.
Right now, it doesn't appear to be that time yet.
When the Honda CVCC first appeared in the US, finding repair centers was difficult due to the low numbers sold. That fixed itself through demand and sales.
But consider the Mazda rotaries. They had good sales numbers, but few mechanics were willing to learn them, even to this day. Training was always available.
These were mechanics raised on piston technology and it was hard to teach them something new.
Nowadays, many techs are digitally oriented techs.
They understand analog concepts, but often have little real-world experience at it.
Finding a tech that understands musicians, analog synths and digital architecture is not always easy. It's one of the reasons why there's very few analog synths like the Voyager being made now.
So, you're speaking about a tiny percentage of techs and a tiny percentage of broken units.
"So, you're speaking about a tiny percentage of techs and a tiny percentage of broken units."
true. but for me personally that one broken unit made all the difference in how i percieve the service methodology.
i beleive that even a few broken or buggy units are a few too much. i bough mine new. and i paid the same price or even more than a new bugfree one today. kind of double plus ungood. the grrr-abiliy was there.
anyway. to get back to the point - the perception that the moog is overpriced crept up peoples minds.
justified or not? those who love their instruments will keep them. at the end of the day, the voyagers are powerful and durable. and they make my music sould just the way i want it to.
ps my new music with the now bugfree voyager will be available for free download soon.
thanks to all at moog music and maximum respect to bob moog.
martin
true. but for me personally that one broken unit made all the difference in how i percieve the service methodology.
i beleive that even a few broken or buggy units are a few too much. i bough mine new. and i paid the same price or even more than a new bugfree one today. kind of double plus ungood. the grrr-abiliy was there.
anyway. to get back to the point - the perception that the moog is overpriced crept up peoples minds.
justified or not? those who love their instruments will keep them. at the end of the day, the voyagers are powerful and durable. and they make my music sould just the way i want it to.
ps my new music with the now bugfree voyager will be available for free download soon.
thanks to all at moog music and maximum respect to bob moog.
martin
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Kevin Lightner
- Posts: 1587
- Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:20 pm
- Location: Wrightwood
Martin,
All things break.
You're entitled to have your perceptions regarding service.
However in order to improve service to the point that you might have been satisfied, the unit might have ended up costing more to begin with.
More quality control (higher prices)
Prepaid shipping back with each unit? (higher prices)
Service centers trained all over for the these minor few units? (higher prices)
The original Minimoogs went through many, many changes too since they were released.
Some changes weren't implemented for years.
Most high tech things bought upon first introduction have bugs.
Whether hardware, software....whatever.
Buy an operating system new and sure enough, an update will be along directly after.
It would be worse if makers like Moog didn't listen to their customers or entirely dropped product lines in order to offer the new flavor of the day, ala Roland.
All things break.
You're entitled to have your perceptions regarding service.
However in order to improve service to the point that you might have been satisfied, the unit might have ended up costing more to begin with.
What is the practical solution to this?i beleive that even a few broken or buggy units are a few too much
More quality control (higher prices)
Prepaid shipping back with each unit? (higher prices)
Service centers trained all over for the these minor few units? (higher prices)
The original Minimoogs went through many, many changes too since they were released.
Some changes weren't implemented for years.
Most high tech things bought upon first introduction have bugs.
Whether hardware, software....whatever.
Buy an operating system new and sure enough, an update will be along directly after.
It would be worse if makers like Moog didn't listen to their customers or entirely dropped product lines in order to offer the new flavor of the day, ala Roland.
that's right. whatever the solution would be, the price would be higher.
i am pretty glad that moog put a lot of effort in the product itself.
whenever i play it now (or even just smell it or turn the knobs or touch the wooden panels) i know that i have something quite uniquie.
i own a "voyager by bob moog". ("uk" model).
the sound is awesome, and the amazing thing is, i can make it sound any old way i want it to. plus, the instrument is good for any style.
i have recorded folk music, country, space, experimental stuff. so the bottom line is, it's very versatile.
i guess that`s what justifies the price and the extra costs of getting it fixed.
the only issue remaining is that now, i feel wary about buying a new product as i feel i might be in a similar situation in the future - meaning my trust is somewhat damaged.
i would love to get the new delay, or a ringmod, or even the breakout box. but - i feel intimidated by installing the b.o.b. myself. i will definietly not send it anywhere for installation cause it would just not feel good to part with my moog again.
or, would i feel good about any new synth? i'd probably wait at least 1 or 2 years before buying anything.
that's why we need more moog repair/installation people. cmon, establish moog embassies worldwide!
i am pretty glad that moog put a lot of effort in the product itself.
whenever i play it now (or even just smell it or turn the knobs or touch the wooden panels) i know that i have something quite uniquie.
i own a "voyager by bob moog". ("uk" model).
the sound is awesome, and the amazing thing is, i can make it sound any old way i want it to. plus, the instrument is good for any style.
i have recorded folk music, country, space, experimental stuff. so the bottom line is, it's very versatile.
i guess that`s what justifies the price and the extra costs of getting it fixed.
the only issue remaining is that now, i feel wary about buying a new product as i feel i might be in a similar situation in the future - meaning my trust is somewhat damaged.
i would love to get the new delay, or a ringmod, or even the breakout box. but - i feel intimidated by installing the b.o.b. myself. i will definietly not send it anywhere for installation cause it would just not feel good to part with my moog again.
or, would i feel good about any new synth? i'd probably wait at least 1 or 2 years before buying anything.
that's why we need more moog repair/installation people. cmon, establish moog embassies worldwide!
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Kevin Lightner
- Posts: 1587
- Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:20 pm
- Location: Wrightwood
I wouldn't worry about purchasing more Moog products out of fear they'll break, but I can't the same about many other maker's products.
Simply put, if Roland and Moog made life support systems, I'd rather trust the Moog with my life.
I'd also offer two other things...
1. You've beaten the odds now that one Moog product had problem. (ie: odds are it won't happen again with another.)
2. You yourself are likely more susceptible to sickness and accident than electronic devices. For example, Bob Moog's inventions outlasted him.
You can't say the same about all manufacturers or their products.
I'm still servicing 37+ year old Moogs, but can't repair tons of synths only made a decade ago because they didn't use commonly available parts, didn't release technical information, they went out of business, etc.
So if you prorate the cost of ownership vs the disposability of some synths, the Moogs are often the better deal in the long run.
Some even sell for more than they did new.
How many Japanese synths can you name that are like this?
Simply put, if Roland and Moog made life support systems, I'd rather trust the Moog with my life.
I'd also offer two other things...
1. You've beaten the odds now that one Moog product had problem. (ie: odds are it won't happen again with another.)
2. You yourself are likely more susceptible to sickness and accident than electronic devices. For example, Bob Moog's inventions outlasted him.
You can't say the same about all manufacturers or their products.
I'm still servicing 37+ year old Moogs, but can't repair tons of synths only made a decade ago because they didn't use commonly available parts, didn't release technical information, they went out of business, etc.
So if you prorate the cost of ownership vs the disposability of some synths, the Moogs are often the better deal in the long run.
Some even sell for more than they did new.
How many Japanese synths can you name that are like this?
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falseface11
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 5:32 pm
- Location: Brunswick, Ohio
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I'm sorry, but I really am having a hard time believing that all of you have perpetuated this topic. Please guys.. Who cares if the time have spent on this topic could have been better spent with your Voyager, or for the same price with a dozen 19 year old bisexual Vietnamese hookers!
Abandon this thread!
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I'm sorry, but I really am having a hard time believing that all of you have perpetuated this topic. Please guys.. Who cares if the time have spent on this topic could have been better spent with your Voyager, or for the same price with a dozen 19 year old bisexual Vietnamese hookers!
Abandon this thread!
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Errrr...falseface11 wrote:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I'm sorry, but I really am having a hard time believing that all of you have perpetuated this topic. Please guys.. Who cares if the time have spent on this topic could have been better spent with your Voyager, or for the same price with a dozen 19 year old bisexual Vietnamese hookers!
Abandon this thread!
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It has been abandoned for over a month until you posted......
Thanks Bob!!