Doesn't look like anyone's seen this yet...

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CZ Rider
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Re: Doesn't look like anyone's seen this yet...

Post by CZ Rider » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:12 pm

Would be interesting to see this technology implemented on a stringed keyboard instrument.
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Something like a five octave square piano with a hammer action might be a game changer for some. Infinite sustain or slow chord swells could be possible. Along with the ability to shape the overtones for tonal variations, followed by a Moog filter. Put in a pitch bend mechanism, and you might have something quite innovative.
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Re: Doesn't look like anyone's seen this yet...

Post by thealien666 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:27 pm

Good idea CZ Rider!

I can only imagine what could also be done with reeds equipped electric pianos, like a Rhodes or Wurlitzer, maybe ?
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Re: Doesn't look like anyone's seen this yet...

Post by Vsyevolod » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:53 pm

Thanks for the calm and cool headed responses guys. I'm really not trying to be a Troll here... :)

I guess it comes down to my personal experience. I have yet to hear a polyphonic synth that sounded anywhere near as good as a finely crafted monophonic synth. Plenty of crappy mono synths out there to be sure... though I consider the Model D and the Voyager to be among the best I've ever heard. Compare that to anything from DSI, the Andromeda, the PolyMoog from decades past... Again, it's just my personal thoughts and experiences. Take a good higher quality VA synth like Nord, Kurzweil, Korg and you're 90% of the way there. What you lack in warm analog richness you make up for in polyphony. Since a lot of that is designed for backdrop sounds, it's all good.

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Re: Doesn't look like anyone's seen this yet...

Post by thealien666 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:03 pm

Dear Stephen,

You will have noticed that I did not mention the Polymoog, which I consider to be a poor implementation of a good polysynth, but rather the Memorymoog. Which is, in reality, 6 full fledge monophonic Moog synths in a box. Not precisely 6 Minimoog D, since it doesn't use Moog oscillators, but pretty damn close to it.

And it's precisely because I feel that the P8 and other current polysynths (and especially VAs) lack something or other, that I would like for Moog to re-issue a modern reliable version of the Memorymoog at least.

Alain.
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Re: Doesn't look like anyone's seen this yet...

Post by EricK » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:51 pm

I don't see why one has to fundamentally change anything about a synth to make it polyphonic, unless one just adds more voices. I don't really see where the distinction is.

How many oscillators per voice would be appropriate?
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Re: Doesn't look like anyone's seen this yet...

Post by museslave » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:48 pm

thealien666 wrote:
Vsyevolod wrote:
To try and make a polyphonic synthesizer, is to radically change the very nature of how it sounds and how it produces music.
You're entitled to your humble opinion, which I respect, Stephen. However, I strongly disagree with it.

How is 4 tracks of separately recorded monophonic Moog synthesizer notes, all at different pitch in order to produce a 4 notes chord, different from an analog Moog polyphonic (such as the Memorymoog) synth that can do exactly the same thing instantly by directly playing those chord notes on its keyboard using multiple VCOs, instead of time lapse one-note-at-a-time multi-track recording ?

Undeniable answer: it is not.
Oh, dear. That is not an undeniable answer, and here is why:
When you multitrack a monophonic device, you get a WHOLLY different outcome than that of a polyphonic device. Completely.
Each individual performance is different than what you do when you push multiple keys at once. What a synthesizer does when its controlling multiple oscillators set to the same setting at once is far different than what happens when you record a monophonic synthesizer 4 different times. Especially when that synthesizer is monophonic. Each individual performance is unique; you get more of a "choir" result. Polyphonic synthesizers are far more static because you don't have the variation that results when you record a monophonic synthesizer 4 different times. If you think THAT is deniable, you've never taken a non-DCO non-polyphonic analog synthesizer, especially a vintage synthesizer, and multitracked it. It's like night and day.
It is different because the pitch varies. It is different because the waveform varies. It is different because your performance varies. It is SO different for so many reasons.


The Abominatron WAS polyphonic. But it was divide-down (and paraphonic). Bob Moog was distinctly unhappy with the results of modulation in regard to polyphony, and it caused him to suggest to Herb that the device should be monophonic. Herb agreed.

When you have a polyphonic synthesizer, you make sacrifices. In the case of all of the synthesizers mentioned in complaints, they were all synthesizers which FORCED you to have the same settings for each voice of the polyphony. That is NOT the best outcome for polyphony. If synthesizer polyphony was true synthesizer polyphony, you'd have the ability to alter each oscillator to suit your tastes, and decide which oscillator played whenever you played any chord. This is, obviously, quite challenging and expensive. Sacrifices were made. The sacrifices are not there when you multitrack a monophonic. The sacrifice in that instance is that it can't happen in live performance. But that sacrifice exists in all musical situations... that's why orchestras were so popular- they do not require that sacrifice.

As for Wendy Carlos, Bob made her a polyphonic module for her synthesizer. It was divide-down, because any other situation would be challenging and costly. As a result, it wasn't that awesome and wasn't embraced as the answer to the synthesizer challenge of polyphony.

Kevin-
The synthesizer is an instrument which developed monophonically. Monophony suited the technology. If we're going to talk about what is undeniable, it is the fact that people play monophonic devices FAR differently than they play polyphonic devices. When people play a monophonic synthesizer, they tend to be more concerned with timbre. When people play a polyphonic synthesizer, they tend to be more concerned with presets and chords. This is not supposition, it is fact.
People don't expect a saxophone to play chords because it doesn't. As such, they play what they would play with a monophonic instrument. No one looked at the trautonium and said "bleep, why doesn't this thing play chords?" It is the KEYBOARD that made people assume the synthesizer SHOULD play chords. In this instance, I applaud Buchla for steadfastly avoiding the keyboard. Supposing that people who play one-note-at-a-time orchestral instruments would want chords if they could have them is different than what I'm talking about.
As for Moog making a polyphonic instrument: it would definitely be in their interest. But for those of us who enjoy the joy of monophonic instruments, it's just going to end up being an OB8 or whatever- a preset-driven pad factory... unless they make it have the ability to program each voice individually as far as timbre, filtering, and articulation- which they won't, because that would be insanely expensive.
Moog increasingly targets a youth-oriented culture. This is going to make money. But then again, those of us who are old synthesizer lovers don't make up much of a demographic.
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Re: Doesn't look like anyone's seen this yet...

Post by museslave » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:50 pm

CZ Rider wrote:Would be interesting to see this technology implemented on a stringed keyboard instrument.
Image
Something like a five octave square piano with a hammer action might be a game changer for some. Infinite sustain or slow chord swells could be possible. Along with the ability to shape the overtones for tonal variations, followed by a Moog filter. Put in a pitch bend mechanism, and you might have something quite innovative.
I have been told that that outcome would be cost-prohibitive... which is very sad indeed.
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Re: Doesn't look like anyone's seen this yet...

Post by museslave » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:53 pm

Also, let's not forget the Korg PS series, which were probably the most accurate polyphonic synthesizers ever made in history. Why? They had individual oscillators (even if they were divide-down), filters, and articulation PER NOTE. Your Prophets or CSs or even the Polymoog (outside of preset mode) didn't have that. And THAT was more polyphonic than really ANYTHING because every single note could be played at once.
Still, though... you lacked the ability to set individual oscillators and envelopes and filters per note. Full polyphony, where each note was able to be completely controlled, has never happened in a synthesizer.
But if you want to play Jump, I'm sure everything will make you happy. :)
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Re: Doesn't look like anyone's seen this yet...

Post by EricK » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:44 pm

They can target the youth all day long if they want, but frankly, Moog instruments have always been cost prohibitive. So, based on marketing to this demographic for profit, what is going to happen? We will see cheaper synths and more apps to get the job done. Much like Hollywood movies and boy bands that thrive on this demographic, they suck because they fail to innovate.

Moog seems to stay true to their synthesizer roots, but have always wanted a piece of the guitar market. This is why we have seen the Moog guitar, lap steel, the foogers shaped like stomp boxes, and now this. They say that this new device is supposed to be adaptable to any surface, but it appears that it will only adapt to a surface that lies in close proximity to a string.

If Moog doesn't want to sell a polyphonic synth, or make synthesizer modules, they force us to spend our money with companies who are delivering the products that we need. I was driven to dotcom because they made sequencers, but more importantly, the ENVGENS AND VCAS to turn my moogerfoogers into a complete synth.

So it looks like if we want a polyphonic synth, we will have to spend that extreme amount of money somewhere else......how is that good for Moog, especially when we want to support and a lot of us still have loyalty to the brand?


They can always propose another pre-order situation for a very small number of synths so they don't risk insolvency and they are guaranteed to sell them. Like I said before, if they think they can sell 5 glam voyagers for 15 thousand dollars each, then why can't they sell polyphonic synths for the same amount?
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Re: Doesn't look like anyone's seen this yet...

Post by thealien666 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:12 pm

Truth is, Marc, that when recording multiple tracks of a mono synth to produce time-lapse chords, one usually doesn't change any envelope or filter settings between takes, and oscillators do not drift enough to be more out-of-tune than a Memorymoog or even a manually adjusted Oberheim 8 Voice.

I bet you'd be hard pressed to tell me when Wendy used her Moog custom made polyphonic device, versus when she multi-tracked chords in her recordings after her Switched-On-Bach 2. Especially when she said herself that she re-tuned the Modular before each take on any track ...
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Re: Doesn't look like anyone's seen this yet...

Post by Kevin Lightner » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:56 pm

museslave wrote:
Kevin-
The synthesizer is an instrument which developed monophonically. Monophony suited the technology. If we're going to talk about what is undeniable, it is the fact that people play monophonic devices FAR differently than they play polyphonic devices. When people play a monophonic synthesizer, they tend to be more concerned with timbre. When people play a polyphonic synthesizer, they tend to be more concerned with presets and chords. This is not supposition, it is fact.
If it's a fact I'm sure you can show me a reference or citing that's not based on opinion? ;-)
Was there some questionaire I missed out on? A study maybe?

Either way you're talking about people, not synths.
People do what people do for any number of reasons.
Lumping them together does them no respect. Saying it's a fact, even less so.
There are many people who got a monosynth and were shocked to find they couldn't play chords on it.
That was their preconception, not the synth creating some Spock-like mindmeld.
No one's shocked they can play one note at a time on keyboard.
I myself can be happy with a polyphonic synth played one note at a time.
Most Odysseys, 2600s and Oberheim two voice synths are played monophonically even though they can be played duophonically.
I know plenty of people who have Obeheim FVSs and play them monophonically as well as polyphonically.
They view their synths as a collection of smaller synths which is exactly what they are.
The control is theirs. The synth begs no one to play one note or ten. It's up to the person.
I simply don't see how one can generalize that most people concentrate on sound if given one note, but their chord if given many.
It is possible and very common to concentrate on both.
One doesn't exclude the other.
There certainly are many polyphonic synths with more mono firepower than many monophonic only synths.
What about them?
I don't see how their sound becomes any less interesting, honest or viable simply because one chooses to play only one note.
museslave wrote:unless they make it have the ability to program each voice individually as far as timbre, filtering, and articulation- which they won't, because that would be insanely expensive.
The desire for uniquely individual voices isn't a prerequisite to making music.
Music played with homogenous voices isn't necessarily inferior because every note has the same timbre.
Yes, one cannot get the same control from such a synth when going after the same effect as a quartet or choir, but not all music is like that.
The Oberheim SEM synths were very good at having different envs, lfos and other "modules" available for their myriad assignment methods.
They could mimic this technique to some degree.
But of course the machine can't read a player's mind and know which voice to assign to which melody line or part of a chord.
That still doesn't mean the result can't be musically interesting or valid.
museslave wrote: Moog increasingly targets a youth-oriented culture. This is going to make money. But then again, those of us who are old synthesizer lovers don't make up much of a demographic.
Yes, Roland used to too. But they found they made a lot of money making digital pianos for old folk. ;-)
As they say, "you're only young once" and that would suggest one is old for a lot longer time and generally the elders have more money anyway.
So all I'm saying is that the cries for a polyphonic and modular gear ARE being made and falling on deaf ears.
Others, like SCI, Korg, Roland (no dummies to synths any of them) are instead capturing the market for polys.
But people would buy a Moog polyphonic if it was available.
I think some might even play theirs one note at a time... ;-)
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Re: Doesn't look like anyone's seen this yet...

Post by thealien666 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:10 pm

museslave wrote:...Full polyphony, where each note was able to be completely controlled, has never happened in a synthesizer.
What ? :shock:


Are you forgetting the venerable Oberheim 2/4/8 Voice ?
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Re: Doesn't look like anyone's seen this yet...

Post by Kenneth » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:39 am

thealien666 wrote:
museslave wrote:...Full polyphony, where each note was able to be completely controlled, has never happened in a synthesizer.
What ? :shock:


Are you forgetting the venerable Oberheim 2/4/8 Voice ?
I think he meant "full polyphony" as in 44 keys, 44 notes can be played at once.

Marc, I am a little surprised you didn't mention the OB 8-voice, which is obviously several monophonic synths connected under the hood and sold as a poly. Seems like that's the one instrument that matches every single prerequisite you had stated for a respectable polyphonic synthesizer. Yes, an 8-voice is not "fully polyphonic" (though I think that notion is, even in this day and age a bit unrealistic and unnecessary), and surely cost prohibitive to most. All that aside, I am still curious: what is your opinion on something like the 8-voice?
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Re: Doesn't look like anyone's seen this yet...

Post by Vince Ascoli » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:28 pm

museslave wrote:But if you want to play Jump, I'm sure everything will make you happy.
Well now, Marc, that makes it sound as if you've never played Jump :wink: Polysynth aficionados know that only an OB-Xa/8 will do...after all, there are fine shades of these things. We don't send a Tele to do a Les Paul's job, right? Jump just doesn't sound right on the MM or JP-8...and if someone's OB-8 isn't more than a preset-driven pad factory for them personally...well, I'd be glad to give them programming tips. But kidding aside and with great respect to Marc, this feels like a very academic conversation (and I've heard it ALL, I trained at Berklee with Tom Rhea, Richard Boulanger, et al back in the 80s + master classes & long conversations with Dr. Bob). I understand entirely what you're getting at, with respect to wishing that a given or hypothetical polysynth would be made more wonderful by every key being its own self-contained synth, if you will. But it feels very 'ivory-tower' to me...in spite of not having even touch-sensitive keyboards, I've never found that generation of instruments to be lacking in expression personally. I'm also very fond of keys in general, but I'm not a pianist. I do agree strongly that overdubbing a monosynth is a very different craft & sound than playing the same basic thing with a polysynth (love that technique in early ELP!). And yes, saxes can play two notes, although the guys I've seen do it never did anything with that 2nd note, it was more of a gimmick. But to keep things on-topic, and to the positive: the instrument you're describing could be built in software, and controlled with some kind of modern hardware version of John Eaton's old 'Notebender' keyboard, right? I've been dying for Moog to tip their hat in that direction and craft a really high-quality stand alone controller, certainly with polyAT but with that extra Z-dimension of control that Eaton & Dr. Bob spoke about years ago. Then take that and plug it into your iPad/Animoog, if you want...it's bound to offer more expression than a tiny slab of aluminum & glass. The development of a modern Notebender-type keyboard by Moog would be one of the best tributes to Bob's vision of what a performance synthesizer could/should be. Take that instrument, master the techniques involved and control anything/everything you like. As far as a polyphonic Moog at this point, I feel strongly that it should be a module, a la the PolyEvolver rack, in order to offer it to the widest audience: existing Voyager & Phatty owners, software/iPad people, etc.. Poly-chain them, as many times as you need to, or can afford...
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Re: Doesn't look like anyone's seen this yet...

Post by dr_floyd » Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:11 pm

Interesting opinions re: mono and poly synthesis.

For the record, a saxophone can NOT play two notes at a time. You can use fingerings that will strongly ring out harmonics of only certain individual tones (called multiphonics), but you don't have much control after that and can't move these overtones to other pitches without new wacky fingerings and mouth gymnastics. And it sounds awful for the most part. Playing multiphonics is not as flexible as tuning a second oscillator on a monophonic synthesizer. Multiphonics also change the timbre of the original tone since the reed is vibrating in a complex way and both "pitches" are using the same resonant body for amplification. Flutes and trumpets also have similar extended techniques.

Since it seems no one has created "total polyphonic" analog instrument imitation using software like MAX/MSP, perhaps there isn't a real musical outcry for it. In the meantime there are stunning musical tools available for sound and composition creation whether or not Moog ever makes a new Memorymoog.

I am totally excited that Moog keeps trying things that no one else tries. I eagerly await the LEV thingy.

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