Question for Moog owners.

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Voltor07
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Re: Question for Moog owners.

Post by Voltor07 » Wed May 09, 2012 6:32 pm

EricK wrote:Save up for the Voyager.
I don't disagree with this statement, but I think it's a personal opinion on how many features one needs, as opposed to how many features one wants. I have had my LP for nearly five years now, and have utilized most of the features it has to offer. Do I have a need for 800+ presets? Not really. Do I need all the OTHER features the Voyager has to offer? Not particularly. I like my overload just fine, thanks. But that's my opinion. It is your opinion that everyone absolutely must have a Voyager, no matter what. :wink:
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thealien666
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Re: Question for Moog owners.

Post by thealien666 » Wed May 09, 2012 6:48 pm

I'll add my two cents: save up for a real Minimoog D ! :roll: :wink: :lol:
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Box
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Re: Question for Moog owners.

Post by Box » Wed May 09, 2012 7:58 pm

Voltor07 wrote:
Box wrote:I would opt for a Little Phatty to get me into Moog, but the lack of noise is terribly bothersome.
What is this lack of noise of which you speak? My LP has white noise, but no pink, blue, or brown. :?
There's noise as a control source just not as an audio source, from what I've read everywhere anyway. I like to use noise in the background for flute type patches for example, among other types of sounds. Unless the Stage II fixed that, but I saw a review on the Slim Phatty and it didn't have noise as an audio source either. If it wasn't for that I'd run out a get one without hesitation.
thealien666 wrote:I'll add my two cents: save up for a real Minimoog D ! :roll: :wink: :lol:
So, who will be the one to tell me to save up for a Moog 55 modular system? :lol:

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Voltor07
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Re: Question for Moog owners.

Post by Voltor07 » Wed May 09, 2012 8:06 pm

For noise as an audio source, there's the CP-251, which when purchased with a Little Phatty, adds up to less than the cost of a Voyager. :wink:
Sub 37 #000068, Minitaur, CP-251, MF-102&103, EHX #1 Echo, EHX Space Drums/Crash Pads, QSC GX-3, Miracle Pianos, Walking Stick ribbon controller, Synthutron.com, Lowrey Teenie Genie.

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thealien666
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Re: Question for Moog owners.

Post by thealien666 » Wed May 09, 2012 8:44 pm

On the subject of white or pink noise as a sound source, I don't know if you're aware that in some old models from Moog, mainly during the Norlin era, they used a digital chip known as the infamous MM5837. Its main caveat was that the loop of pseudorandom digital values was very short (around 1 second), creating a very recognizable and audible pattern in the noise.

The models that use this chip are: The Source, The Rogue, Realistic MG-1, Liberation, Micromoog, Multimoog, Memorymoog.

Models before those, (such as the 903 and 903a modules, Minimoog and Sonic Six) as well as all the currents models that offer noise as a sound source, use a purely analog and completely random noise source known as transistor reversed bias.

This chip was so bad, that when Korg came out with their Mono/Poly synthesizer model back in late 1981 they made only a few tens of units, then stopped production for a week to redesign and replace it with a conventional analog source, before resuming production.

Edit: other synth manufacturers of that era also used this chip in some of their models, notably Sequential Circuit Prophet 5, Oberheim OB-X, and maybe others too I don't remember them all...
Last edited by thealien666 on Thu May 10, 2012 12:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
Moog Minimoog D (1975)
DSI OB6
DSI Prophet REV2
Oberheim Matrix-6
Ensoniq SQ-80
Korg DW8000
Behringer DeepMind 12
Alesis Ion

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Box
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Re: Question for Moog owners.

Post by Box » Wed May 09, 2012 9:27 pm

Voltor07 wrote:For noise as an audio source, there's the CP-251, which when purchased with a Little Phatty, adds up to less than the cost of a Voyager. :wink:
Suppose so. That or could run MIDI out of the Phatty into the MIDI in of one of my synths with noise, then run output of that into the Phatty. Really would like self contained though. Why Moog why, why could you not just have built in noise!? *shakes hands in air*
thealien666 wrote:On the subject of white or pink noise as a sound source, I don't know if you're aware that in some old models from Moog, mainly during the Norlin era, they used a digital chip known as the infamous MM5837. Its main caveat was that the loop of pseudorandom digital values was very short (around 1 second), creating a very recognizable and audible pattern in the noise.

The models that use this chip are: The Source, The Rogue, Realistic MG-1, Liberation, Micromoog, Multimoog, Memorymoog.

Models before those, (such as the 903 and 903a modules, Minimoog and Sonic Six) as well as all the currents models that offer noise as a sound source, use a purely analog and completely random noise source known as transistor reverse bias.

This chip was so bad, that when Korg came out with their Mono/Poly synthesizer model back in late 1981 they made only a few units, then stopped production for a few weeks to redesign and replace it with a conventional analog source, before resuming production.

Edit: other synth manufacturers of that era also used this chip in some of their models, notably Sequential Circuit Prophet 5, Oberheim OB-X, and maybe others too I don't remember them all...
I knew about the Mono/Poly using a digital noise chip at first, then later changing it. Didn't know that about the Moogs though.

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Kevin Lightner
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Re: Question for Moog owners.

Post by Kevin Lightner » Wed May 09, 2012 11:38 pm

I can't be certain, but I think one synth (Chroma?) used two of the MM5837s in order to get around the "rhythmic" quality of it.
Might have been the MM5437 tho. I'm too lazy to look it up right now.
The MM5437 was an attempted improvement, btw. It had a longer shift register and other improvements.
(..and no, you can't directly replace an MM5837 with an MM5437 in case you're wondering.)

Reversed biased transistors were the standard way of making noise in the "old days."
Another method is using a zener diode, which can often sound cleaner.
The Arp Odyssey service manual had an addendum explaining how to replace their noise transistor with a zener.
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Re: Question for Moog owners.

Post by Voltor07 » Thu May 10, 2012 12:22 am

Kevin, as per usual, excellent information. Thanks! :D
Sub 37 #000068, Minitaur, CP-251, MF-102&103, EHX #1 Echo, EHX Space Drums/Crash Pads, QSC GX-3, Miracle Pianos, Walking Stick ribbon controller, Synthutron.com, Lowrey Teenie Genie.

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thealien666
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Re: Question for Moog owners.

Post by thealien666 » Thu May 10, 2012 12:45 am

Kevin Lightner wrote:I can't be certain, but I think one synth (Chroma?) used two of the MM5837s in order to get around the "rhythmic" quality of it....
I know that in the Rev 3 (and up) Prophet 5 they used two MM5837, one for white noise audio source, and another for pink noise modulation source for the mod wheel. Don't know about the Chroma though...

Edit: the later MM5437 had a 23 bit shift register, providing a much longer cycle of about one full minute instead of just one second. That chip came out too late and never caught on with synth manufacturers who had gone back to the tried and true methods of either diode or transistor fully random noise generation for their subsequent models.
Moog Minimoog D (1975)
DSI OB6
DSI Prophet REV2
Oberheim Matrix-6
Ensoniq SQ-80
Korg DW8000
Behringer DeepMind 12
Alesis Ion

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Box
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Re: Question for Moog owners.

Post by Box » Thu May 10, 2012 1:44 am

Interesting and useful information!

Got to looking around feeBay again, seems some of the older Voyagers go for around $2,000. $850 is the most I've ever spent on a musical instrument, quite a jump.

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Re: Question for Moog owners.

Post by Voltor07 » Thu May 10, 2012 2:26 am

Box wrote:Interesting and useful information!

Got to looking around feeBay again, seems some of the older Voyagers go for around $2,000. $850 is the most I've ever spent on a musical instrument, quite a jump.
Or you could opt for a second mortgage and get the XL. :wink:
Sub 37 #000068, Minitaur, CP-251, MF-102&103, EHX #1 Echo, EHX Space Drums/Crash Pads, QSC GX-3, Miracle Pianos, Walking Stick ribbon controller, Synthutron.com, Lowrey Teenie Genie.

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Re: Question for Moog owners.

Post by Box » Thu May 10, 2012 3:40 am

Hard to mortgage what you don't own. :P Will just have to sell my project car. Anyone want a 67 Coupe DeVille? :lol:

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Re: Question for Moog owners.

Post by Voltor07 » Thu May 10, 2012 4:31 am

I wish my driveway and garage was big enough. :(
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Re: Question for Moog owners.

Post by narrowcaster » Thu May 10, 2012 6:28 am

I'll throw in another vote for the LP + CP-251. I also had a hard time dealing with the lack of an audio noise source and the single mod bus, but adding a CP opens things up enough that the LP really becomes a pretty powerful semi-modular. For years I owned a Model D, and could still get it back pretty cheap (plus the extensive restoration it would need), but in the end I opted to stick with modern synths. The D certainly does have its own sound/feel, and for some it's a peak experience, but honestly I just found it to be a different flavour rather than better, and not worth the extra expense and effort of vintage. That's a personal choice, so you won't really know unless you try one.

My style requires tweaking in a sound-design sort of way, and also playing the keyboard extensively, and the LP is an OK compromise for both of those. The hands-on parameter control isn't as extensive as the Voyager, but really is quite good. I do feel slightly constricted compared to what I remember the Model D being like, but not unacceptably so (especially with the CP added). And the keybed is certainly not the best, but it's perfectly serviceable. So the Voyager is probably better in terms of overall ergonomics/control, but the LP is still a pro-level instrument in these respects. Also, a big selling point of the LP for me was the smaller size. And where knobage is concerned, I find the LED rings around the LP controls a huge bonus compared to the plain Voyager knobs.

Of course the LP sounds fantastic -- different from the Voyager so again there's a preference choice to be made there rather than a quality one. Personally I slightly prefer the sound of the LP, especially given the price difference, but I can see how some people would prefer the Voyager. In terms of Moog versus other synth brands, it's true that they have their own sound(s) and if that's what you want, that's what you need. I've also got a duophonic Mopho setup (keys plus module), and in the past I've had a chance to play a lot of Rolands, Korgs, and Yamaha analogue gear, and none of them sound like a Moog. Again, I wouldn't go so far as to say that Moog sounds better or worse, but they are certainly different and so I'd suggest finding out which is right for you, rather than wasting time trying to make one synth substitute for another.

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Re: Question for Moog owners.

Post by Box » Thu May 10, 2012 2:46 pm

Voltor07 wrote:I wish my driveway and garage was big enough. :(
Driveway/garage stretcher! It's only 18.5 feet long. :P
narrowcaster wrote:I'll throw in another vote for the LP + CP-251. I also had a hard time dealing with the lack of an audio noise source and the single mod bus, but adding a CP opens things up enough that the LP really becomes a pretty powerful semi-modular. For years I owned a Model D, and could still get it back pretty cheap (plus the extensive restoration it would need), but in the end I opted to stick with modern synths. The D certainly does have its own sound/feel, and for some it's a peak experience, but honestly I just found it to be a different flavour rather than better, and not worth the extra expense and effort of vintage. That's a personal choice, so you won't really know unless you try one.

My style requires tweaking in a sound-design sort of way, and also playing the keyboard extensively, and the LP is an OK compromise for both of those. The hands-on parameter control isn't as extensive as the Voyager, but really is quite good. I do feel slightly constricted compared to what I remember the Model D being like, but not unacceptably so (especially with the CP added). And the keybed is certainly not the best, but it's perfectly serviceable. So the Voyager is probably better in terms of overall ergonomics/control, but the LP is still a pro-level instrument in these respects. Also, a big selling point of the LP for me was the smaller size. And where knobage is concerned, I find the LED rings around the LP controls a huge bonus compared to the plain Voyager knobs.

Of course the LP sounds fantastic -- different from the Voyager so again there's a preference choice to be made there rather than a quality one. Personally I slightly prefer the sound of the LP, especially given the price difference, but I can see how some people would prefer the Voyager. In terms of Moog versus other synth brands, it's true that they have their own sound(s) and if that's what you want, that's what you need. I've also got a duophonic Mopho setup (keys plus module), and in the past I've had a chance to play a lot of Rolands, Korgs, and Yamaha analogue gear, and none of them sound like a Moog. Again, I wouldn't go so far as to say that Moog sounds better or worse, but they are certainly different and so I'd suggest finding out which is right for you, rather than wasting time trying to make one synth substitute for another.
Will have to look into this LP/CP-251 combination. Maybe GC will bring in/have a LP since it's over half the price of the Voyager, didn't the last I checked. They had all the top end workstations though... :roll: I just always have heard that Moog was IT. The Roland analogues I have now, sound very nice. Some of the older Yamaha and Korg synths look really cool too. Yamaha CS-15/30 and Korg Mono/Poly come to mind. I'll try and see if any local stores have the Little Phatty by chance. There should be some kind of place, where there's every synth known to man and you get to try them out. Save trouble on this finding out what you really want program, oh well.

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