Moog Music Forum

Does anyone know why Moog discontinued the MF-104z delay? And more importantly, does anyone know if they are planning on releasing another delay fooger?? And, if the answer to that is –no, they have no plans– then my final question is: does anyone want to sell me their MF-104z?

Nobody knows. I wouldn't think that Moog would get back into this but I'm guessing.

To your other question, there is a 104z for a good price over at Muffwiggler right now. (mid-$400 i think). If you really want one you should jump on it. Folks around here seem to think that the 104 should go for more than the original retail.

Double topic man!!!

EMwhite wrote:Nobody knows. I wouldn't think that Moog would get back into this but I'm guessing.

To your other question, there is a 104z for a good price over at Muffwiggler right now. (mid-$400 i think). If you really want one you should jump on it. Folks around here seem to think that the 104 should go for more than the original retail.

Do you think it's still there? I couldn't find it on there, but I'm new to that site (had to join just to search).

stiiiiiiive wrote:Double topic man!!!

I know, I'm a jerk. I originally posted it on the 'fooger board, and then realized that not as many people comment there, so I put it here. Guess i should have deleted the other one.

EMWhite, all I saw was this one for $625

http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewto ... oger+delay

namahshaman wrote:I know, I'm a jerk. I originally posted it on the 'fooger board, and then realized that not as many people comment there, so I put it here. Guess i should have deleted the other one.

Ooh no, >I< am sorry I did not get your topic title!!

The supply of the original Panasonic analog bucket brigade delay chips, used by Moog in the MF-104z, has run out. The chips have been discontinued and so has that Mooger Fooger model. No adequate replacement has been produced yet. Maybe the chip maker Analog Devices could acquire the rights to a re-issue, but nothing so far.

That's the main reason for the high prices of analog delay effects using these chips. And their limited production run.

You can still find some unsold, or used ones. But prices are sure to keep going up...

I see. I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to engineering and such (so feel free to tell me why this is ridiculous), but if those particular chips are in such high demand for analog delays, then why doesn't someone start manufacturing them again?

namahshaman wrote:I see. I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to engineering and such (so feel free to tell me why this is ridiculous), but if those particular chips are in such high demand for analog delays, then why doesn't someone start manufacturing them again?

I'll check when I get home. I may have confused the prices with something else I saw there. For some reason, I keep getting locked out of Muffwiggler from work.

namahshaman wrote:I see. I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to engineering and such (so feel free to tell me why this is ridiculous), but if those particular chips are in such high demand for analog delays, then why doesn't someone start manufacturing them again?

Short answer is: there is probably not a high enough demand for them yet. Those chips were discontinued in the '90 when everything digital was still more popular than analog(at least for effects). We're lucky that their stock pile was big enough to allow several thousands of analog delays to still be produced ! But they eventually ran out, unfortunately. Some NOS do pop-up from time to time on the web, but usually in limited quantities.
From what I've heard, Electro Harmonix has managed to get their hands on some original Panasonic chips not too long ago but in very limited number.

I know that a chip maker in China has obtained the rights to produce a low-cost version, but they're noisy and of low quality, and nowhere near as good as the original Japanese ones. Certainly not good enough to put in a Mooger Fooger.

Also, DSP technology is now powerful enough to produce a very convincing emulation of analog BBD technology. (for example the very customizable Strymon Brigadier)
That's most probably another reason why Panasonic will not invest in retooling their factories to produce these analog chips anymore.

The only chip maker I could see that is already equiped to do so is Analog Devices.

Other than tape delays, is there such thing as discrete analog delay?

unfiltered37 wrote:Other than tape delays, is there such thing as discrete analog delay?

Since at least 512 discrete transistors, and as many capacitors, would be needed to produce a ... 13 ms delay (at minimum clock rate and minimum fidelity) , I cannot imagine so.

Dedicated Integrated circuits, incorporating several hundreds of these transistors coupled with a capacitor each in a sample-and-hold fashion, was the only technically feasible solution.
Those chips, by the way, where derived from early CCD (charged coupled device) prototype technology for video imaging...

Another interesting fact is that, analog delays using BBD chips have a lot in common with their digital counterparts. They both sample the audio signal at a variable clock rate. One type stores the information as numbers in memory, the other as analog voltages in capacitors. That's why if you slow down the clock speed low enough, in both systems you will have aliasing artifacts (if the clock signal is left unfiltered).

unfiltered37 wrote:Other than tape delays, is there such thing as discrete analog delay?

I think that there was once a 'drum' delay which essentially used magnetic media rotating on a drum as tape later did. ProGuitarShops and Andy specifically put together a really good mini-documentary on Delays. I'll see if I can dig it up and edit this thread.

For Namashsaman, I'm afraid it was the one you spotted. For the life of me I thought I read $475 so it was either edited or I was mistaken (I am getting old!). Sorry about that but if $625 is in your price range, you ought to scoop this up. I have the aforementioned Diamond Memory Lane II and spent $625 for it (have a mod that was done at the factory); it's basically a swap for tape tempo (Diamond ML II) for CV control of more controls (Moog). The Moog also does a lower-fi setting that essentially slows down clocking of the BBD for extended max time delay. And this one says it's in very good condition. A few guys here swear by the 104. Good luck!

EDIT: That was easy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPWzDRorGlU

Thanks for the link EMwhite !

I didn't know about the Binson Echorec drum system. Quite innovative, for the time!