Can really an moog modular be cloned today?

[unfiltered37]

Modulars to me aren't really musical instruments. Of course they can be and probably are used as such most of the time, but to me their purpose is crazy sound exploration more than anything. They may be thought of and played musically, but to do so exclusively is to limit their potential. Someone with more knowledge of synthesis and the system itself but little musicianship has way more power in their hands than a seasoned musician with limited experience/knowledge of the particular modular.

And even musical skill is an imperfect metric, since there are many systems of musical notation/theory, though the western form being thought of by most, at least in the English speaking world, as the only form. But like the English language, there are many alternatives that are just as legitimate like the Gamelan form and North Indian form. And modulars may even fit these systems better than western music, particularly because of the non-stepped melodic facility of the oscillators, either using a ribbon or some sort of pitch bend. So musicality is not necessarily a prerequisite for modular righteousness.

In this regard, maybe Moog modulars are not the end all be all, but they are the original standard for modulars, and as such will always have the status of the most desired and copied. Actually a lot like the Stradivarius, a hugely coveted instrument, which in blind tests has been shown to not sound any better than high quality modern equivalents. But usually only the best players are heard playing these instruments, so they are considered a cut above the rest.

[Sweep]

And even musical skill is an imperfect metric, since there are many systems of musical notation/theory, though the western form being thought of by most, at least in the English speaking world, as the only form. But like the English language, there are many alternatives that are just as legitimate like the Gamelan form and North Indian form. And modulars may even fit these systems better than western music, particularly because of the non-stepped melodic facility of the oscillators, either using a ribbon or some sort of pitch bend. So musicality is not necessarily a prerequisite for modular righteousness.

This is complete nonsense. You have to be a musician to play Indonesian or Indian music. Yes, it's different from Western musical forms, but it's still a musical language that has to be learned and practiced.

[unfiltered37]

Not sure what you are calling nonsense. When did I say you didn't have to be a musician to play Indonesian or Indian music? Not sure why I'm even asking, its obvious you have an emotional problem with me and are trying to provoke me with a juvenile insult. Is that really necessary?

[Sweep]

Oh for goodness sake, just think about what you're writing before you post it.

The logic of what you said means that you don't have to be a musician to play non-Western music, which is of course nonsense. If you didn't mean to say that then you really should have worked out what you were saying before you said it. I wondered whewther to even bother before commenting, but what you said was so ridiculous that it couldn't be allowed to pass.

Look, it's simple: Yes, there are many forms of music. But all of them require musicians to play them, so that doesn't prove what you were trying to say, that musical skill isn't the essential requirement for playing a Moog modular.

And then you said a Moog might be more suitable for non-Western music. Yes, it might, but that doesn't mean you don't have to be a musician to play one. Your conclusion about `musicality' (which you specifically referred to), is therefore wrong.

You say I have a problem with you. The only problem is that you post complete rubbish that you haven't even bothered to think through. In future I think I'll just completely ignore you, but really, do yourself a favour and just think before expecting other people to read what you say.

BTW How about if we were to post your comments on an Indian music forum, to see what people make of it there?

[EricK]

The only thing that I want to add is that when you reach a certain point, you are really doing yourself a disservice unless you buy quality.

Pianos are a wonderful example. There are some pianos that have a crappy action and they actually play and sound like crap, no matter what you do to try to get around it, they sound and feel like crap. The sound chamber is muddy, and all they resonate is the clackety clack of the crappy action. Not that you can't make beautiful classical music on it, but surely it is uninspiring to play.

The same can be said for a student sax mouthpiece and one you have to drop a couple of hundred bucks on. There are nuances that seperate a professional quality instrument from a student model.

In the end, you have to enjoy life. If your idea of enjoying life is to clone a Model T Ford and stand out there in the snow cranking the crank, as long as you are happy then that is all that matters.

[Kevin Lightner]

I agree with this 100%. (and you're a very good writer too!)

K

PS: For me it would be an API console and outboards, not Neve.
But this is probably only because I've had more experience with API than Neves and find them easier to repair.
Both are superb and I understand the analogy between Moogs and them.
This all begs the question tho: Would the Beatles have been a success if they had used Mackies and Behringers?

Since I was asked, I have to reply with a question: What is the point?

I think it's just pure materialism, combined maybe with the investment aspect. But in my opinion, modular systems by their nature, at least today, are purely materialistic. I mean to have even a basic system provides pretty much endless possibilities. Yet people will keep adding more and more modules that they will probably never explore fully. I particularly get a kick out of seeing Keith Emerson's huge Moog, with all of the patch cords, knobs and screen, yet the simplest minimoog sounding patch coming out of it.
But to have an original Moog is extremely cool, and I think it would be on the top of my list along with an original Neve console (for the same reasons), were I to find a vein of gold in my backyard. Just owning a model D, even though it's sound and feel trumps any other aspect of its value, still is very cool in a historical, sentimental way (which model D haters tend to say is its only appeal). Also I think moog systems have a very cool, though not flashy look to them. The beautiful wood, black faceplates, and red lights is a very appealing combo, vintage yet futuristic. If i had one would explore it when I could, but you're right, the actual resulting output of the system would in no way account for the cost and upkeep.

I love how you can't post an opinion on a forum without someone getting butt hurt.

[Kevin Lightner]

I don't subscribe that synths must follow equal tempered (or any other scale) as the basis for what one might consider music.
But to me, Buchlas and Serges and quite perhaps many others made today have something that most Moog modulars don't: they don't have such limited ranges.

With most Moogs, limitations and features are imparted to aid in the production of music.
They're tailored to making western style music.
Mostly 12 tone octave temperment, but there are exceptions here and there.
But fact is- they're marketed to musicians- most of whom play standard western scales.

With other synths, namely Buchla, Serge, Arp 2500s and several others, the range of voltages is simply deeper, the signals often hotter and less incompatibilities or normals are placed in your way.
There's many more mults too.
You can make sounds with some synths that no vintage Moog could make unless very large or at least do it easily and intuitively.
Moogs from the vintage era are severely limited unless very large.

Consider that old Moog modulars operate mostly on 12 volts.
That's 12 octaves of range max. (1v per octave.)
One might include some of their -6 volt supply to get a bit wider range, but no matter what, 18 volts is the most you're going to have to play with.

Now on, say, an Arp 2500, 2600 and many currently produced synths, they use +/-15 volts or a 30 volt total swing.
30 is a lot more than 18.
Many of these synths also allow far deeper input modulation.
So when it comes to doing deep modulation, FM, PM.. whatever... one can achieve tones that an old Moog couldn't hope to achieve.
Sounds that have hugely complex harmonic overtones. Sounds that don't lend themselves to western music at all.

Consider having a synth create 6 or 8 complex tones such as these and then using them rhythmically.
Now consider having this same idea and being frustrated that you have a whole Moog 55 in front of you and you're locked into 3 pairs of 3 VCOs per CV, one slave VCO, lower modulation range, a choice of just a couple active filters, etc.
They can actually get quite boring if you're the type trying to explore a modular and not just make great bass sounds or whatever solo instrument you're after.

So back to the original point: what IS the point of duplicating an old design like a Moog modular?
Just to set something straight tho: just because something's old doesn't mean I think it's worse.
I'd much prefer an EQ made with true coils than anything made with opamps.

[MC]

Consider that old Moog modulars operate mostly on 12 volts.
... One might include some of their -6 volt supply to get a bit wider range, but no matter what, 18 volts is the most you're going to have to play with.

Around the time the Moog modulars were conceived - 1964 - the first integrated opamps were starting to appear. Their power rails were +12/-6VDC, no higher. Moog probably chose the power rails on the modulars for future accommodation of opamps. Very few trumansburg-era moog gear used any opamps, the only one I can think of is the Bode Frequency Shifter.

By the time of the ARPs, opamps had improved to +/-18VDC rails.

I'd much prefer an EQ made with true coils than anything made with opamps.

Former Moog engineer Bill Hemsath - the developer of the minimoog - would have no argument over that. He said back in the moog days the early opamps were not very good to put audio through. Some would argue they still aren't.

[CZ Rider]

So back to the original point: what IS the point of duplicating an old design like a Moog modular?

I can answer that in one word..."Tone".

A Moog modular with the old 901 oscillators and the original discrete CP3 mixers have a very unique tone and sonic character that is difficult to reproduce without a rare original or an exact clone of those same circuits.

I can't speak for the OP, but bollinote states he has a clone of the 921 oscillators and the 1458 op-amp based CP3a mixer in a Mos-Lab, and was searching for something with the older oscillators. And I'm guessing he is looking for the tone from the older series and not the tone of a Moog 55.
I can speak for myself, and say I too was looking for that elusive Moog tone I have listened to on many Berlin School tracks from Klaus Schultze or Tangerine Dream. I've come very close with an older minimoog, but still there was a little something missing. Just a slightly different tonal character. I have been playing this type music since 1975 and in '79 formed a band with three other members.
Back in 2007 I found a 1969 Moog 1P that was virtually kept in a time capsule for me, at a very reasonable price. By the end of 2007, I had rebuilt and recalibrated the old Moog. It took me a good year of experementing with various patches to begin to find all those unique tones. A very subtle instrument, with so many little adjustments with feedback paths and using the 907 fixed filter or 905 reverb in the feedback loop. The 901's waveforms are all different amplitudes with the pulse wave being the highest, requiring more subtle adjustments in the CP3 mixers. Too much gain and the distortion overwelms, but set just right, sounds like no other synthesizer I have owned.
I have to say I like the old Moog for so many reasons. The bass is simply unbelievable. There is this nasil tone you get from it, using those coils in the 907 that has that familiar elusive tone. And there is this bass tone you get, a kind of rubber band pluck I have only been able to reproduce with this old Moog. I could go on and on with reasons why this is one of my "Holy Grail" Synthesizers. But is still holds magic for me, and I believe that is important. I would describe a Moog 1P as the Minimoog's bigger bad-ass brother. It has everyting the Mini has and then just a little extra.
But in the end it's all about the tone. And the old Moogs have plenty of that. And no matter what people believe on the internet, if it is not exactly the same then it can't be the same, can it.
A small example of the Moog 1P doing a Berlin School sequence. This is just the Moog with four tracks synced together. Missing the synth strings and classic Mellotron so you can just listen to the Moog tone.


Small example of a Moog Modular tone 3.8Meg MP3





And just a side note, I did not buy a classic Moog modular because it is a collectors item. Though it is cool to think this was made on August 11, 1969. That was only five days before Woodstock, and delivered to Walter Sear. This one certainly has a history, but I own this for the sound it produces. I have taken this out many times and just handle it like you would a newborn baby. I don't bang it into things and make sure it is secure when transporting. It stays in tune very well, better tuning stability then my Voyager. Here is a photo from a radio concert in Philadelphia. The Moog went through an analog board and brodcast through the airwaves on FM, and was simulcast over the internet.

[CZ Rider]

Around the time the Moog modulars were conceived - 1964 - the first integrated opamps were starting to appear. Their power rails were +12/-6VDC, no higher. Moog probably chose the power rails on the modulars for future accommodation of opamps.

MC, I often wondered about the power rails on the old Moogs myself. Why +12/-6 volts? Only recently, I watched a video with Herb Deutsch, where he mentions the first modules he and Bob were working on, used car batteries to power them. He stated, I think, that they had a 6 volt and a 12 volt battery. Could that be the answer why.
Perhaps they just stayed with that original power setup.

[MC]

Well, remember that Bob had built thousands of theremins before he met Deutsch. While I've never seen a schematic of them, the later ones had to have used transistors with a regulated bipolar power supply, and transistors back then were not limited to +12/-6VDC.

Sure is an oddball rail scheme, but the early opamps seem to be the logical design decision behind them.

[Ronny_Pudding]

"unfiltered37 wrote: I love how you can't post an opinion on a forum without someone getting butt hurt."
Ease up on the butt stuff. That includes slurping Kevin's.

A 19 year old can't drive a vintage muscle car anymore either unless he's got big bucks or he's a mechanic. So what? I couldn't afford a lot of things when I was 19. Still can't. Welcome to the free market. I collect records and electronic music gear. I don't spend a lot of money. I look for opportunities be it flea markets, garage sales, auctions, etc. That's part of the fun. Finding something that's cool to me for relatively cheap. I've enjoyed a lot of different sounds this way. I've never sold anything so I'm not trying to make money doing it. This bullshit "collector scum" mindset sounds more to me like sour grapes. Most people that collect aren't wealthy, aren't paying top dollar and aren't in it to make money. I've met tons of them.
Why do I have to help keep certain items in circulation so the price doesn't go up? That's utter, idealistic non-sense. Claiming to be a pragmatist and then saying something like that is just silly. And CZ Rider, shame on you for having all that lovely vintage gear that you really don't need. You need to find some 19 year olds and hook them up with some of that gear for cheap. Let them party like it's 1986. It's just the right thing to do. It's what Kevin, unfiltered37 and the others are doing as we speak right?

[artpunk]

*chuckle* You know, I can't even remeMber who's gotten upset by who in this thread... (butt hurt? LOL that's a new one for me, must not have reached my region of downunder yet...and as a Registered Nurse I too would like to plead a moratorium on mentioning butt-hurtedness, I see too many butts and too many hurts in the ED where I work!)
Now, apart from owning some analogue musical gear, I collect other analogue stuff, or rather I have unintentionally become a collector through the simple process of accquiring stuff that interested me and not getting rid of it. I didn't really mean to accumulate all this analogue gear, but there's plenty more of most of this out there, so I don't feel personally responsible for driving street prices up. I think we can blame evilbay and fads for that sort of thing. I suppose I don't really regard myself as a collector, because in my mind, collectors collect but don't use what they collect. I use most of my stuff (or have done in the past)
Now don't laugh at me when you see the photo, honest, it sort of crept up on me....



Obsession by artpunk, on Flickr

[unfiltered37]

It's just the right thing to do. It's what Kevin, unfiltered37 and the others are doing as we speak right?

I never defended Kevin's view, in fact I disagreed with it, but I do defend anyone's right to state their opinion as long as a reasoned argument is put forward. But of course, a random person reading the opinion will come out of the woodwork and take personal offense at any opinion at odds with their own. Artpunk, that is the definition of "butt hurt", an unreasonable emotional response where no offense was intended, like not being able to take a joke. You should attempt to spread it into the lexicon down there.

[Kevin Lightner]

Very few trumansburg-era moog gear used any opamps, the only one I can think of is the Bode Frequency Shifter.

This is true, however the Bode 1630 frequency shifter is one of the few Moog modules that demands a +/- 15 volt power supply. They cannot be powered off Moog's normal +12/-6 supply (or at least not with good results.)

Other modules that used the higher +/-15 volt supplies were the CP3A mixer (not the CP3.)
This is important because a CP3A can therefore provide gain and be used for both audio and DC applications where a boosted signal is necessary.