not to stir up trouble, but...

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moogslob
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not to stir up trouble, but...

Post by moogslob » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:23 pm

So I've had my Voyager Old School now for a couple of weeks- I considered before buying it saving up to get a Model D, due mainly to all the guys online claiming the radical sound difference of the V vs the D- I ended up going with the Voyager due to many reasons: I play out with 3 different bands, many of my Moog parts require Osc sync and sample/hold, tuning issues would get me replaced by someone with a Nord :roll: , etc., etc.- So, of course I was excited, but in equal parts nervous when the Voyager showed up on my doorstep-
Here's my question:
What on earth is all the bs hooplah about? Within a couple days of getting to know the Voyager, I was able to dial in any Model D sound I wanted! Song for song, even, with witnesses! :P If a bandmate says, "Holy shite! That's "Magic Man"!", am I supposed to say, "Well, not really..."? Gary Numan, Devo, Rush, Kraftwerk, I promise I can recreate THOSE tones- I'm really trying to hear a "plasticness" I've read about, but it somehow is not there...
I'm not an audiophile, I'm a musician, and this Moog works for me as a D would, with many extra perks- Should I worry about 1 out of 100 people in an audience smirking that it's not a Model D? Nope- And to you prospective Voyager buyers, please ignore the nerd alerts that claim it sounds "nothing like a true minimoog"- total shite
Voyager Old School, Etherwave Theremin, Wurlitzer 200A, MS2000, Gretsch Anni, dinged up surfboard x 2

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LaxSlash1993
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Re: not to stir up trouble, but...

Post by LaxSlash1993 » Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:46 pm

A lot of it depends on the speakers, and the sound that the user dials in. There was a comparison someone did on YouTube, side by side with a Model D vs. the Voyager. Like you said, there's not much difference.

Personally, I would probably get the Model D over the Voyager for no reason more than the fact that it's vintage (I like vintage synths). But, after I got the Model D, I would probably get the Voyager sometime. I've seen videos of it on YouTube, and I personally like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMMaIEEFU6I

There is a little bit of a difference, but not too much. You have to watch the entire thing for the "same settings" comparison.

unfiltered37
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Re: not to stir up trouble, but...

Post by unfiltered37 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:42 am

Whatever people happen to invest in, they will tout, whether its a psychological need to tell themselves that they made the right choice and are not missing out; or seeking out gear that appeals to them specifically, its a confirmed phenomenon. Just look on any gear forum, the debates are always peppered with: "I have a plugin but not the hardware, and it sounds just as good if not better", "but I have the hardware and nothing beats the real thing, the plug in is crap".

With musical tools, its always subjective and hugely psychological what is favored. I did however get both a voyager and model D to see which suited me better. I kept both for longer than I expected, but eventually sold the voyager. To me the model D had a more pure, organic sound that was far from squeaky clean. The voyager was unlimited in what it could do, emulated other synths well, but was a little too perfect and didn't have the feel of a traditional musical instrument like the D. EIther way, both are good tools, but quite different. And as far as getting the voyager to sound like a D, the same can be said of the right software settings or combinations.

EricK
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Re: not to stir up trouble, but...

Post by EricK » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:50 am

Hahah another V/D Thread.

I think the Voyager is rather limited.
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moogslob
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Re: not to stir up trouble, but...

Post by moogslob » Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:14 am

yea yea - it's all about conveying a strong true Moog sound live with me, and this instrument does it-
it really all boils down to musicianship- there are guys out there that can use a microKorg through a crappy solid state amp and PERFORM a solo that blows away a forum lurker with a Voyager XL, or ModelD, or whatever-
Voyager Old School, Etherwave Theremin, Wurlitzer 200A, MS2000, Gretsch Anni, dinged up surfboard x 2

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artpunk
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Re: not to stir up trouble, but...

Post by artpunk » Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:24 am

These kind of threads pepper all sorts of forums and can cover anything from cars to cameras to xylophones probably...what unfiltered73 says about psychological justification sounds pretty apt to me...in reality if you like something you've got then great, not everyone will agree with your tastes. I have the Voyager, would probably not be able to justify the expense of a D, (collecting foogers now instead of saving for a D) :) - but would not even think to compare or worry about having one or the other, for me the Voyager produces MONSTER sounds & I'm perfectly happy with it .I am fortunate as I aready have a 'vintage' synth; a Korg Mono/Poly (which I got back a month ago after a 25 year 'borrow'!) & not everyone 'likes' those either, they would rather a MS-20 (I had one of those too once upon a time)...

When someone (hi ErikK!) says "I think product x is rather limited" I would like to hear a breakdown of the specific limitations explaining why something with very similar feature set is actually limited compared to the other something. I aknowledge that these points may have been delineated in other threads here before and people may not want to repeat themselves ad nauseum, but if this is another V/D thread of many the search results may be hard to plow through...if there was a link to a definitive thread or if anyone had a link to some hard data rather than just opinion that would be nice.
Regarding youtube comparisons, given the audio quality of youtube uploads and the audio output set-up/limitations of the platform any given audience might be viewing them on, is it really possible to take them very seriously?
:D
Last edited by artpunk on Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers,
Cameron

"Information is not knowledge.
Knowledge is not wisdom.
Wisdom is not truth.
Truth is not beauty.
Beauty is not love.
Love is not music.
Music is THE BEST."
— Frank Zappa

moogslob
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Re: not to stir up trouble, but...

Post by moogslob » Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:02 am

amen artpunk

I've learned and am learning not to lean so much on complete e-strangers' opinions vs my own ears-
It all boils down to playing live with me- You can druss up/double/etc your Moog tracks in the studio to sound however you please- But when you're in a club and the song is happening, either your instrument lives up to your performance, embellishes it, or is lacking- I don't have time to deal with tuning issues (I'm usually also playing guitar), and need non-Model D features, with the Model D sound- I now have it with the Voyager Old School; plain and simple, and I really don't give a flip what a gaggle of independently wealthy guys with a collection of Moogs, Arps, Sequential Circuits synths in their home studios think, no matter how many posts they have... :roll:
Voyager Old School, Etherwave Theremin, Wurlitzer 200A, MS2000, Gretsch Anni, dinged up surfboard x 2

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unfiltered37
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Re: not to stir up trouble, but...

Post by unfiltered37 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:01 am

moogslob wrote: I don't have time to deal with tuning issues and need non-Model D features, with the Model D sound-:
You can get model D patches, but not the actual sound, that is something different, due to the inherent properties of the discrete circuitry. It's like running a singer's voice through a modern preamp, and then a classic vintage preamp. Yes, the singer's voice is there, with all of its inflections, and timbre details, but the two preamps will color the sound in different ways due to the circuitry. To me the Voyager is analogous to like a ultra transparent GML pre with impeccable specs, while the model D is more like a vintage Neve 1073, which tend to drift from spec, so each one is subtly unique. Some prefer crisp clean high resolution, some prefer the down and dirty rawness of a 1073 in the red.
Also, yes tuning is a bich, but to me, someone who had grown up playing traditional instruments of which tuning was a huge part of the process, it makes the model D feel that much more like a "real" instrument.

unfiltered37
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Re: not to stir up trouble, but...

Post by unfiltered37 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:21 am

EricK wrote:Hahah another V/D Thread.

I think the Voyager is rather limited.
VD is always a pleasant topic. Anyway, I forgot to address the "limited" statement. Yes it has limitations here and there, but its possibilities still approach infinity. I have a math degree, and one of the few things I retained was how functions approach infinity. 2 different functions can both be infinite, but one always approaches infinity faster and one slower. The Voyager's limitations simply slow its approach to infinity, but its functions are still infinite. A modular synth would probably approach infinity much faster.

example: The positive integers: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7.... will approach infinity slower than the positive multiples of 3: 3,6,9,12,15,18,21 because at the, say 20th iteration, the first function will be 20, and the second function will be 60, which is closer to infinity than 20.

Just Me
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Re: not to stir up trouble, but...

Post by Just Me » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:30 am

Had a late mfg D. Loved it. Sold it. Bought an ARP 2600. Two actually over time. When the V came out, I tried to decide V or D. The V has more sonic control than the D and after having the ARP's, that was important. I can faithfully reproduce for live use any of the patches I need. Does it sound the same? No! But I'm not using the same amp or speakers now, either.
"Music expresses that which can not be said and on which it is impossible to be silent."

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artpunk
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Re: not to stir up trouble, but...

Post by artpunk » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:21 pm

unfiltered37 wrote: example: The positive integers: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7.... will approach infinity slower than the positive multiples of 3: 3,6,9,12,15,18,21 because at the, say 20th iteration, the first function will be 20, and the second function will be 60, which is closer to infinity than 20.
I'm sure this means something to someone not as ignorant of the magic of mathematics as I am, but I think my eyes, no, my whole Central Nervous System, just glazed over! LOL!
unfiltered37 wrote:
moogslob wrote: I don't have time to deal with tuning issues  and need non-Model D features, with the Model D sound-:
   Also, yes tuning is a bich, but to me, someone who had grown up playing traditional of having to repeatedly do some  instruments of which tuning was a huge part of the process, it makes the model D feel that much more like a "real" instrument.
- In some ways I can understand the sentiment but not the practicalities of that statement... Is it not dissimilar to saying "I grew up using computers running Windows OS's and troubleshooting dll conflicts & the like was a huge part of the process; using a mac just doesn't seem like using a real computer because I never get the Blue Screen Of Death & it just works"?
...perhaps we can start a windows vs mac thread now? LOL! No really, I think we have all probably seen quite enough of those! :)

...as I said, I understand the sentiment when it comes to 'traditional' musical instruments, but in the real world, repeatedly having to perform a task that takes time away from actually creating and producing music doesn't make sense to me...
Cheers,
Cameron

"Information is not knowledge.
Knowledge is not wisdom.
Wisdom is not truth.
Truth is not beauty.
Beauty is not love.
Love is not music.
Music is THE BEST."
— Frank Zappa

Spitfire
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Re: not to stir up trouble, but...

Post by Spitfire » Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:56 am

Everything is the same, but different.
Minimoog Model D / Moog Little Phatty TE / DSI Prophet 08 / Elektron Digitone / Elektron Octatrack Mkii / Clavia Nord Wave / Nord Drum II / Clavia Nord Lead 3 / Roland TR-707 / Roland TB-03 / Korg MS-20 / Access Virus TI 2 Polar / Roland SH-101 /:mrgreen:

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museslave
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Re: not to stir up trouble, but...

Post by museslave » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:10 pm

Don't buy a synthesizer in hopes that it'll sound like another synthesizer. That is the most bizarre counter-intuitive musical choice... I really don't understand how we got to a point where our decisions about instrument purchase are based on price and convenience over musicality/taste.

In any case, the Old School is an incredibly awesome synthesizer. So the is the Voyager. But they don't sound like a Mini at all. Yes, you can dial up sounds that sound like sounds MInis make, but you can also do that with a number of synthesizers. What defines a synth's sound isn't what parts of it other synths can emulate, but rather the parts that other synths CAN'T emulate. A time will come when I do a demo... not to show what the Mini sounds like versus the Voyager... not to show how they can sound similar... but exactly where they sound nothing alike. The very notion that anyone would ever suggest that they sound pretty close demonstrates that people are not listening as much as they are checking their wallet and/or thrilling at availability... and again, those are not reasons to buy a synth.

Listen to an Old School, a Voyager, or any other synth. Find out how well it suits your needs and decide to purchase it for THOSE reasons... there are plenty of great reasons to do so. But the notion of buying a synth in hopes that it'll be just like another synth... especially an iconic, difficult to emulate, amazingly wonderful synth... that's just madness.
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Rob Smith
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Re: not to stir up trouble, but...

Post by Rob Smith » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:49 pm

I agree with Museslave. The minimoog voyager and the mini moog are two different instruments. They are both in the same family, however, the original mini has a tonal quality like no other synthesizer. It's incredibly huge in sound and then at the same time, can be dialed in to some of the most beautiful lead sounds known to mankind. Watch the video and you will see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxUZ4YPXTUQ

By the way, I own both and for some reason, I am drawn to the original model D for its rawness and simplicity.

unfiltered37
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Re: not to stir up trouble, but...

Post by unfiltered37 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:08 pm

The model D is a classic instrument that will go down (and already has) in history as not only a techno-musical breakthrough, but also as an incredibly useful instrument that really has no equal. It really was the first and best keyboard synthesizer ever made. Sorry, but as awesome as the voyager is, there is no competing with the Model D. There are very few pieces of gear that I consider transcendent of price and function, and the Model D is at the top of the list. When I fire up the model D and space echo, the feeling cannot be described, the vibrations resonate deep within my spine and permeate my central nervous system until my consciousness explodes into a vibrantly colorful chaos.

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