Politics at Moogfest

In a Moog Mood? Here's a forum for discussion of general Moog topics.
User avatar
museslave
Posts: 590
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:52 pm
Location: Asheville
Contact:

Re: Politics at Moogfest

Post by museslave » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:37 am

Sweep wrote:
museslave wrote:There's a good chance many of the people who design, manufacture, or fund the things you love have political or religious views you don't agree with.
Of course. But publicly campaigning for those views as a company policy is quite different, I think?
So, it's not what they think, it's only what they say?
www.youtube.com/user/automaticgainsay
www.myspace.com/automaticgainsay2
www.myspace.com/godfreyscordialmusic

Sweep
Posts: 440
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 8:37 pm

Re: Politics at Moogfest

Post by Sweep » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:18 am

museslave wrote:So, it's not what they think, it's only what they say?
People have a right to think whatever they like. But I'm not going to support a person or a company with my money if they're going to use my money to promote ideologies I regard as wrong in some way. So yes, there is a distinction. In practice it's going to be blurred a little, but those are the outlines, at least as far as I'm concerned.
Websites: http://musicbysweep.com and http://theSynthiMusicSite.infinite9ths.com

Electrong
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:11 am
Location: Norman, Oklahoma

Re: Politics at Moogfest

Post by Electrong » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:35 am

"I have trouble getting past these things. I'm sure I can't be the only one that feels this way." I don't feel as strongly as you do, but I didn't read the webpage.

"Yes, there is a political slant and it's political humor. But a joke non-the-less." Whether or not it is a joke, some are laughing and some aren't and that makes it unprofessional from a marketing standpoint.

"Moog makes such quality products that have such a top notch sound, the only people hurt by boycotting Moog are the Boycotters." Actually it directly affects the company through loss of revenue and negative publicity.

"If Moog Music chooses to take a public stand on these things, it still doesn't alter their products in any way." It alters the public perception of the company. If I thought I was funding a political agenda when I was purchasing a product, I would consider that in my decision. I also might consider that, if others perceive the use of a product by a company that publicly has a certain political image, I was supporting that political viewpoint by using the product. As ridiculous as it sounds there are people who think along these lines.

"So, perhaps for just this once, you could just decide to cancel the battle? No need to retract anything, just decide that this may not be the best hill on which to stand. Especially seeing as no one else here seems to be is standing at the foot of that hill, waiting to take it!

All we want to do is talk about Moog synths. Posts like yours' can be misconstrued as being a troll, and can only result in your finding yourself with no one to talk to."

I'm not reading much synth talk from the above.

"I was trying to express my thoughts without being political... guess i failed at that! You guys make good points. I guess what i meant is, why would they choose to even get involved in that when it's supposed to be a celebration of Dr. Moog and all his contributions."
Your statements make perfect sense to me.

"FWIW a link on the facebook page for Moogfest likely has nothing to do with Moog Music. Moogfest is being run by AC Entertainment and there's a good possibility that the facebook page is being run by someone who doesn't even own Moog gear."

BINGO!!! NOW WE HAVE SOMETHING TO talk about! NOT AFFILIATED WITH MOOG MUSIC. Although if they condoned the posting of the political commentary they're still responsible.

"I do see where Mitchell Chastain is coming from with this, and reading his initial post he was careful to say why he didn't think Moogfest was an appropriate setting for political statements - regardless of political orientation.

It seems his concern has been questioned, but his reasons haven't been sufficiently acknowledged." Yeah.. I agree with the Brit again..

"There's a good chance many of the people who design, manufacture, or fund the things you love have political or religious views you don't agree with." I have no problem with this until they use their profits from my purchases to promote ideology that is not the same as mine. The Moog name is a sign of quality in the synth world. In the music world, company names can easily become stereotyped by the non-related political leanings of their company leaders.

"People have a right to think whatever they like. But I'm not going to support a person or a company with my money if they're going to use my money to promote ideologies I regard as wrong in some way. So yes, there is a distinction. In practice it's going to be blurred a little, but those are the outlines, at least as far as I'm concerned." Agreed.
Minimoog Model D, Roland SH-1, Simmons SDS-8, Rhodes 73 suitcase, Ludwig/Gretsch Drums, Zildjian/Paiste/UFIP cymbals, Various acoustic percussive effects

theglyph
Posts: 471
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:58 pm
Location: Jungle of patch cables

Re: Politics at Moogfest

Post by theglyph » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:47 am

Sweep wrote:
museslave wrote:So, it's not what they think, it's only what they say?
People have a right to think whatever they like. But I'm not going to support a person or a company with my money if they're going to use my money to promote ideologies I regard as wrong in some way. So yes, there is a distinction. In practice it's going to be blurred a little, but those are the outlines, at least as far as I'm concerned.
Please remember that the only political statement that Moog has made as of recent is that the Voyager carries on the sound/integrity/legacy of the Model D (i.e. MiniMoog for purists). :shock:

Shame on them for such blasphemy! :x

Sweep
Posts: 440
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 8:37 pm

Re: Politics at Moogfest

Post by Sweep » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:18 am

theglyph wrote:Please remember that the only political statement that Moog has made as of recent is that the Voyager carries on the sound/integrity/legacy of the Model D (i.e. MiniMoog for purists). :shock:

Shame on them for such blasphemy! :x
Well, isn't this topic supposed to be about alleged political statements by Moog? Are you saying those statements never existed?

Incidentally, is the page in question still online? I was unable to trace it a couple of days ago.

What concerns me is that no-one at Moog has made any attempt to say what's actually going on, and what involvement, if any, Moog had with these statements.

If this was out of Moog's hands, done by someone else, but with the Moog name attached, you'd think they'd be concerned about it.
Websites: http://musicbysweep.com and http://theSynthiMusicSite.infinite9ths.com

EricK
Posts: 6009
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:09 pm

Re: Politics at Moogfest

Post by EricK » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:49 am

I think this is getting a bit ridiculous.

But is it smart to attempt to cease to use a product because you think that they are using your money to promote poltiical ideas you don't agree with?

With the recent supreme court decision, you now have no way of knowing what major corporation promotes what political ideaology, because it doesn't have to be disclosed. (Thanks, Judges!)

Supreme Court Decision Blocks Ban on Corporate Campaign Spending
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34822247
(Don't watch that link if you hate GE because they own NBC)



If you want to live off the grid, maybe you can pull that off.

If you really want to live by your principles (an honorable thing to undergo), you might find it impossible to do ANYTHING, no matter which side of the fence you lean towards. You can boycott clothes made in sweatshops, All pertoleum products, you can boycott anything from China or avoid the major corporations who we KNOW run major networks we don't agree with. THen you might as well be Survivor Man, eating grubs and berries for dinner, provided they weren't genetically enhanced (if you don't agree with that).


So Really, I don't think it was clear where the link to the rally appeared, if it was some facebook advertisement or endorsed by Moog. I am left leaning independant, and I thought the Rally lacked any political content whatsoever from the performers. I didn't even think it was worth watcing (except for the Roots) and wasn't even really funny. I don't think its that big of a deal if you ask me, unless Moog starts endorsing the Taliban or Starts putting BLood Diamonds on their products, or they start writing Death to America on their iridescent stickers.

R2D2 was there,Are we going to start hating on Star Wars now?
Support the Bob Moog Foundation:
https://moogfoundation.org/do-something-2/donate/

I think I hear the mothership coming.

Electrong
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:11 am
Location: Norman, Oklahoma

Re: Politics at Moogfest

Post by Electrong » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:17 pm

Mitchell Chastain's point is well-taken, though. Politicizing a business can have drawbacks. Some businesses may actually benefit from revealing political standpoints. The synth biz may or may not be one of those.
Minimoog Model D, Roland SH-1, Simmons SDS-8, Rhodes 73 suitcase, Ludwig/Gretsch Drums, Zildjian/Paiste/UFIP cymbals, Various acoustic percussive effects

Sweep
Posts: 440
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 8:37 pm

Re: Politics at Moogfest

Post by Sweep » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:35 pm

EricK wrote:If you really want to live by your principles (an honorable thing to undergo), you might find it impossible to do ANYTHING....
[etc etc]

I've heard this argument so often over the years that I've lost count of how many times. But all it amounts to is, do nothing.

As far as I can see, the world isn't perfect, and nor are any of us, but if we don't even try then things will get progressively worse.

The reason we no longer have slavery the way we did a couple of hundred years ago is because a few people did try to go against the attitudes and the economic pressures of the time. A great many injustices, both large and small, have been eased and even eradicated completely, only because people did something, often in a small but significant way.

When it comes to people selling goods, consumer power is going to be effective because if people don't buy, they go out of business. There's a direct and very effective way to hit them if necessary. It works - though often it doesn't work anything like as powerfully as it might because people don't bother and make defeatist disparaging comments instead.

It's also been suggested that questioning a company's ethics just rebounds on the person protesting. But in the case of the guy pushing his Creationist nonsense, did it hurt me not to take any further interest in his instruments? No, not at all. He's one of many synth makers, and nothing he does is indispensable. In any case, what pleasure would it give me to play an instrument that was produced out of some dubious kind of background? It simply isn't necessary to do that. There are plenty of instrument makers to choose from, as well as second-hand sellers.

For the record, I make a point of buying fairly traded instruments. A number of my pieces include sounds from instruments made under Fair Trade agreements. There's also quite a lot of music from second-hand instruments where the person benefitting from the sale to me has been an individual - and I've never knowingly bought from someone dodgy. If necessary I could continue to make music I'm happy with for the rest of my life using Fair Trade and second-hand instruments and never support a contemporary business again. It certainly wouldn't harm me or my music. As it is, I do try to support one or two sellers of new instruments because I find their instruments worthwhile and I support their business and want to see them continue to trade. But I could drop any number of instrument makers now without any particular harm to myself or my music. I'd much rather do that than play an instrument that hepled support injustice or oppression. To me, injustice and oppression, or any kind of inhumanity, isn't what music's about.
Websites: http://musicbysweep.com and http://theSynthiMusicSite.infinite9ths.com

Electrong
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:11 am
Location: Norman, Oklahoma

Re: Politics at Moogfest

Post by Electrong » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:30 pm

I agree with this, it boils down to whether one thinks the instruments are the source of the music or is the ideas and the person the source? I question whether even the individual is the source. There's some kind of creative mind that is the source, maybe, but I enjoy using a synth to make that idea come into reality. I'm not held captive by it, though. If I feel that a certain ideology that has nothing to do with the music or the instrument is being promoted, I will consider that when I purchase. And, in the case of other companies that have similar instruments, and I'm torn between the two, it may be a breaking point. I certainly don't think that would be my primary consideration, but I do think that it would affect my overall viewpoint regarding said company's products. Of course everyone's free to consider or ignore these things when making a purchase; however, it benefits these companies when potential buyers voice their concerns.
Minimoog Model D, Roland SH-1, Simmons SDS-8, Rhodes 73 suitcase, Ludwig/Gretsch Drums, Zildjian/Paiste/UFIP cymbals, Various acoustic percussive effects

EricK
Posts: 6009
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:09 pm

Re: Politics at Moogfest

Post by EricK » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:46 pm

Sweep,
Look I really don't think this forum is the place for this discussion, but I will take part in it because I have dabbled in political activism and I can appreciate everyones passion that they bring to the discussion despite various disagreements.

First, I can be quite hypergraphic, so theres no need to try to put words in my mouth, hehe. I don't condone being a complacient citizen. But, I have been food poisoned by McDonalds before, and boycott Mcdonalds as I hate what they represent. But I also realize that it could have very well happened at Wendys, Pizza Hut, Burger King, Rally's or any other puke food joint that I might have attended at one point. I also hate Walmart, and everything they represent, for we have more than one ghost walmarts that are empty. I hate how they put Ma and Pa businesses out of Business. But then I shop at Brookshires, which is really no different, just on a smaller scale. They have their data mining methods and aspire to be what walmart is. I also try to support non corporate musical instument dealers over corporate ones, even if I have to cross state lines. I have a background in retail sales also, and I take customer service issues pretty seriously because I have worked so hard to serve my customers. If I feel a salesperson or a company is disrespectful I won't give them my money. I realize that MY personal standards might be to the point where I will end up alienating myself to the point where I can't function. And things aren't like they used to be. People don't put such emphisis on customer service anymore (case in point, Roland, etc). Business isn't done the same ways anymore. Work ethic in this country has declined to a point where one almost has to settle for mediocrity, and thats a damn shame if you ask me. No wonder everything is going overseas, people are simply doing things better.

So I respect one for putting their principles first, but its very hard to do so and not suffer in some way. I think my music wouldn't be the same if I boycotted Moog and sold my gear and traded for dotcom/doepfer/motm etc. Its just a matter of what people will settle for. I have spent so many years sacrificing things for my music, I won't compromise. There is a difference between a professional model instrument and a student model one, in playabillity and sound, all of which help the creative process or hinder it. It won't make your ability to arrange or produce any better, but it will make the difference to YOU which is the most important.




But is this really the hill someone wants to die on? I mean, lets say for an instance that Moog did have a link to the rally. Is it really a crime? Would you be equally as outraged if they endorsed GLen Beck or the 9/12 movement?
but if we don't even try then things will get progressively worse.
While I agree to a degree, this is a bit pessimistic.
I don't see how you can compare this to slavery though lol.

Who pushed "Creationist Nonsense"? Im all about free speech, but I think that there are all kinds of people on this forum, Athiests and THeists alike so lets not go there.



SOme people could argue that trade agreements like NAFTA are parts of the reason why there are no manufacturing jobs in this country, and promote corporate outsourcing. Its a double edged sword.


My point is, that I encourage all Americans or all world citizens to stand up for what they believe in, but I think getting mad because some website had a link to some rally is a bit of a kneejerk reaction.

Do you really want Moog to go out of business?


Is Sanity or Rational discussion something to decry? I think that was really the message in the rally. THere was so much negativity and a lot of totally BS stuff, accusations and lies and misinformation going around that I for one am glad that someone stood up and said "Lets be rational" for a change.



Eric
Support the Bob Moog Foundation:
https://moogfoundation.org/do-something-2/donate/

I think I hear the mothership coming.

Electrong
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:11 am
Location: Norman, Oklahoma

Re: Politics at Moogfest

Post by Electrong » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:29 pm

Why should a synth company die on that hill? They ought to have better marketing sense than that, McDonalds and Walmart notwithstanding.

I mean if they're all that and a bag of peanuts, you'd think they could do the right thing on the marketing end of it as well. And I agree Moog is topnotch synth quality.
Minimoog Model D, Roland SH-1, Simmons SDS-8, Rhodes 73 suitcase, Ludwig/Gretsch Drums, Zildjian/Paiste/UFIP cymbals, Various acoustic percussive effects

EricK
Posts: 6009
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:09 pm

Re: Politics at Moogfest

Post by EricK » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:45 pm

Why should a synth company die on that hill?

You know, I never saw a link to the infraction, I thought it was something that appeared on a facebook page, which is beyond their control. I don't know exactly the context of the ad or where it appeared, so unless Mitchell clarifies (perhaps he did, I may have missed it), then there really may be all this hubbub over nothing. I browsed the Moogfest page, I never saw anything like that (doesn't mean that it didn't happen).

E
Support the Bob Moog Foundation:
https://moogfoundation.org/do-something-2/donate/

I think I hear the mothership coming.

Electrong
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:11 am
Location: Norman, Oklahoma

Re: Politics at Moogfest

Post by Electrong » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:58 pm

Could definitely be much ado about nuttin.. Not having read any of that junk I'm just saying, if you're running a company, that is the primary concern you have, politicking should be only used if it is determined that it benefits the business, right?

Edit: The moogfest 2010 page contains none of the things that were complained about. Whether they were there, it is a moot point now. I saw the lineup of that festival and If I were within 200 miles of it, I would have gone, probably or at least salivated about the notion of going. BTW The Minimoog D is the best synthesizer ever produced, period.
Minimoog Model D, Roland SH-1, Simmons SDS-8, Rhodes 73 suitcase, Ludwig/Gretsch Drums, Zildjian/Paiste/UFIP cymbals, Various acoustic percussive effects

Sweep
Posts: 440
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 8:37 pm

Re: Politics at Moogfest

Post by Sweep » Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:21 am

Eric, thanks for the clarification. That sounds quite different from what I thought you were saying at first - and I respect you for the stands you've taken.
EricK wrote:Look I really don't think this forum is the place for this discussion...
I'd usually feel the same, but as the issue was already raised by the existence of this topic it seems reasonable to address it properly.
EricK wrote:While I agree to a degree, this is a bit pessimistic.
I don't see how you can compare this to slavery though lol.
Well, you never know, maybe some Moog employees might think slavery is an issue. :D

But seriously, I mentioned that as the most serious example I could think of where a real and necessary difference was made despite strong economic pressures. It seems some people discussing this topic are thinking only in terms of the specific issue regarding Moog, while others are speaking more widely and discussing the general principles behind this issue. I'm thinking more of the general principles of how to deal with a company (or any trader) with quesationable allegiances.

Most people wouldn't worry too much if the allegiances are minor, but individuals will draw a line in different places depending on how they see things.

As an example, we had a case here in Britain before the last election. J. K. Rowling gave a million pounds to the Labour Party because she regards them as liable to help single mothers, and having been a struggling single mother she feels the issue is important.

By this time it seemed likely the Labour Party would have little interest in single mothers and a lot more interest in ripping off everybody regardless of their situation, and Blair had pushed Britain into the invasion of Iraq, and so on, so many people disapproved of J.K. Rowling for this - but most people regarded her as well intentioned but misguided. I'd agree with that assesment, and I think boycotting her work because of it would be an extreme over-reaction. If she'd given the money to some organisation that supported extreme racism, or violence, or anything like that, the issue would have been more serious. She never would do that, I'm sure, but it's possible to imagine a less decent author doing something like that. People would draw the line in different places, but I think most people would think it was worth drawing a line somewhere.

Regarding Moog, the issue remains unclarified - we don't know for sure what was said, or what responsibility they may have had - or not had. So the topic seems to be widening out into a more general discussion, which I think makes sense. It's interesting to see where different people would draw the line.

There's one issue I really must clarify, though -
EricK wrote:Who pushed "Creationist Nonsense"? Im all about free speech, but I think that there are all kinds of people on this forum, Athiests and THeists alike so lets not go there.
I've deliberately not said who this was, because if they're still doing it then it'll be clear from their website, and if they've thought better of it then it would be unfair to bring up a past mistake against them.

But I agree with you about not going there regarding religious debates. I mentioned this because I don't regard it as specifically an issue of religious belief. I have no problems at all with different religious beliefs and I don't think I would ever boycott someone on the basis of a belief. In fact I've put myself in the firing line many times to defend people who've been attacked for their beliefs, usually when their beliefs haven't been mine anyway.

What bothers me about Creationism isn't the religious belief attached to it, but the deliberate misuse of knowledge to promote false ideas. When Creationism was debated in court (the Dover Case of a few years back) the issue wasn't religious belief, but the deliberate distortion of facts and the presenting of misinformation to promote Creationist ideas. Several of the Creationists were found to have lied under oath.

As far as I'm concerned, people can believe whatever they want. But if they harm others, which I think includes deliberately lying and falsifying information, especially when it comes to the education of schoolchildren, then I draw the line there. The American legal system also drew a line there with regard to Creationism. It's been speculated that Creationism is promoted by people who don't necessarily have a specific belief but want to gain power and influence by turning large religious groups to political advantage. That does seem to explain the otherwise puzzling way they deliberately write misleading propaganda and present it as education.

That's why I drew a line with that particular synth maker. If he wants to follow a set of beliefs, I don't mind. As I mentioned, I've bought instruments from a different Christian evangelical/fundamentalist who discusses some aspects of his belief on his instrument website. That's fine with me. But the synth maker was promoting misinformation, false information presented as fact, and I think that's quite different from having a belief, or even mentioning that belief on a website dedicated to selling instruments.

I thought I should clarify that because I wouldn't want to be misunderstood as someone promoting religious intolerance. Anyone who knows me would know that certainly isn't the case, but it could sound that way in an Internet forum like this one.

Regarding the main points about whether I'd want Moog to go out of business, and what options there are if a company is boycotted:

No, I certainly wouldn't want Moog to go out of business, and indeed one of the reasons I think this topic is important is because it seems likely that it's in Moog's interests to focus on selling instruments and supporting musicians, and not in their interests to promote political ideologies.

Indeed, I suspect we'll find the political statements were either quite mild, meant in fun, or else the work of someone unconnected with Moog. To me this topic is about discussing the general principles involved, and making sure this issue is clarified and Moog don't suffer for it if they're not at fault. I'd like to see this settled so that it doesn't harm Moog in the long term.

With regard to alternatives, of course it depends on what you need, but if I didn't have a Voyager yet I could always choose to buy a second-hand Model D instead. That would suit my music, but of course other people's needs may differ. Personally I could live without any Moog gear if necessary, but again that's going to be different for different people. In any case, as I already have a Voyager from several years back, any questions now would relate to new purchases.

But in an extreme scenario, if my main instrument was made by someone with very extreme and serious attitudes (such as supporting terrorism, torture or the like) then that would definitely influence me to change instruments and change my style of music. In lesser cases, such as the Creationist synth maker, I'm influenced to look at different synths, and there are plenty of them around. If he made something unique and important to me I'd find the question much more difficult.

One point for future reference: if anything like this ever comes up again, it would be helpful if the person drawing attention to it would provide a link to the material in question, and also if they'd save a copy in case it gets taken down before other people have a chance to see it. Then we'd know exactly what the issues are.
Websites: http://musicbysweep.com and http://theSynthiMusicSite.infinite9ths.com

anoteoftruth
Posts: 441
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:34 am
Location: Edmonton, AB
Contact:

Re: Politics at Moogfest

Post by anoteoftruth » Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:53 am

If this thread burnt up and disappeared... I really wouldn't mind... really.
Moog Voyager RME / Moog LP SE 2 / Nord Rack 1 / Microkorg / Korg ER-1 / Triggerfinger / Rocktron Banshee talk box / Ableton live / Guru / Lots of non-electric musical instruments.

Post Reply