Your opinion wanted - re: recording knob tweaks in Live

The Moog Forum Moog Beta Forum
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Hello, Ableton Live users! I have a question for you.

So, as you have certainly noticed, when you have the Sub 37 Editor plug-in working correctly in Live, you see the on-screen knobs moving when you turn knobs on the Sub 37 hardware.

This leads you to expect that when you hit “record” and turn knobs on the hardware, this should result in plugin parameter automation getting recording for the knobs in the plug-in. You would think that, since it looks like all the hardware knobs are mapped to all the plug-in knobs.

However… the reality is more complicated, and that’s where I would like your input as a user. First I will explain what’s actually going on, and then I will ask what you think we should do with the plugin, in light of the facts.

So… when you click with a mouse on one of the plugin knobs and adjust it, this action is definitely always recorded as plugin parameter automation.

If you turn knobs on the hardware, by default Ableton Live just sees this as incoming MIDI CC data, which it will record as MIDI CC envelopes.

In recent builds of the Editor plug-in, we have tried a work-around… when the Editor gets MIDI from the knobs, it reports the knob-movement to Live, the same way it would if you were adjusting the knob with a mouse. This causes plugin parameter automation to get recorded automatically, without any extra steps on the user’s part.

however… it’s not so simple… because the Sub 37 is still sending MIDI into Live, and Live still doesn’t know about any special link between those MIDI CCs and the plugin knobs… if you do things the way I just described, you actually get both the MIDI CC data recorded as raw MIDI, and you get plugin automation recorded. This is not ideal, and it may be related to a new bug report where Live bogs down and gets slow when turning hardware knobs on the Sub 37.

Now it turns out there is a way around this, which is to set up Live’s MIDI mapping the way Ableton originally intended.
To do this, you go to the MIDI settings page and enable REMOTE for the Sub 37 MIDI input… then type command-M to enter MIDI Mapping mode… click on the knob of the Sub 37 plugin that you want to map for recording, then turn the matching hardware knob on the Sub 37. This should map the hardware knob to the plug-in knob.

If you do all of that and then record, the hardware knob tweaks get recorded correctly as automation for the mapped plug-in parameter, and there’s no extra recording of MIDI CCs. Basically, I think this method gives exactly the intended results.

The only problem with the last method I mention, is that it’s an extra step, that doesn’t seem like it should be necessary because the plug-in knob already moves when you turn the hardware knob. The key distinction is, this is because the editor is listening directly to the hardware using its own MIDI connection… this “mapping” has nothing to do with the plug-in host (Live, in this case). So that’s why you still need to map using Live if you want Live to handle knob-recording in an intelligent way.


So basically, my reason for typing all of this is that we’re fighting some bugs with the “work-around” solution, where the plugin reports any knob-turning due to external MIDI (from the hardware) as though the user was adjusting those plugin knobs with the mouse.

My question to you the user is, is it really a problem to use Live’s MIDI Mapping, to the point where we should keep wrestling this bug, potentially releasing the plug-in with problems in Live? Or, is it OK to use Live’s MIDI Mapping and declare that to be the official correct way to use the plugin?

Any opinions, comments, thinking-out-loud would be very welcome. Thank you!

Amos

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I think the average recordist is going to assume that if they see the knobs move and they sense that something is going to be recorded, it would be a let down to have to map things manually. Personally I only ever really map filter cutoff and one or two other functions, so I don’t mind the step. But given how hands-on the sub is and how “virtual hands on” the plugin feels, I think that people will most likely get their expectations up and be bummed that those knob turns aren’t being recorded automagically in a fluid way.

You can’t please everyone of course: some people will clamor for a public editor asap, and say that as long as you fully disclose the “proper” way to do things, then users should rtfm, etc.

But if the problem is surmountable eventually (and it probably is: I’m thinking of Elektron overbridge here), then waiting to get it worked out and ultimately releasing something that makes people feel excited and solid about the technology is probably a smart move in terms of maintaining the high amount of trust people have in Moog engineers.

On the subject of overbridge: have you guys reached out to the Elektron team to see if they’re receptive to helping you brainstorm some of your challenges here? I was tickled to see that you guys stock Elektron boxes in the Asheville showroom store, and it gave me hope for amicable relationships between Moog and Elektron (and other teams, for that matter). I’m not sure how those kinds of engineer/industry politics go, but I feel like, when everyone gets along, everyone wins–both builders and buyers :slight_smile:

Not to veer things too sharply towards a discussion of overbridge. I’m sure the technology is quite different. I’m guessing they’re using something that was built from the ground up to address this very problem, and that might not be a feasible route for you guys at this stage of development. But I mention it because I get the feeling that they’ve established a new level of expectation among musicians who combine Live with hardware.

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Thanks for your feedback!

I think I remember Overbridge being out a year or so later than originally anticipated, too. :slight_smile: Bet it wasn’t easy getting everything to work seamlessly! But it is a noble goal.

I am good buds with some of the Elektron guys on a personal level, but there hasn’t been any official collaboration so far. Sounds like it might be worth having a chat with them about the Live integration process, to get their experience. Overbridge is a complete solution in a way we aren’t even attempting (and can’t do, with respect to streaming the audio into Live)… but there may be some lessons to be learned regarding automation recording at the very least.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Thanks again,

Amos

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No doubt you’re going to have people expecting everything to work exactly as they assume it will - with recorded hardware knob movements reflected in the plug-in at playback time, but it’s easy enough to map it if people need that visual feedback.

Personally I don’t bother - it’s really easy to view the actual cc envelopes in live and I have an image of the sub 37 with the midi cc numberslisted in place for each parameter.

I’d say the tipping point is how Moog feels about people constantly asking the question rather than reading documentation/searching the forum.

A sticky at the top of the phatty forum with the first post covering all the potential editor pit-falls would be a massive help in that regard imo.

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I’m rather new to Live and only scratched the surface, so I might be completely wrong, but…

would it be possible to provide a Remote Midi Script or External Instrument preset which provides all the mappings?

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Amos,

This may be a very dumb question, since I know almost nothing about computer programming: Since Moog has your own, custom MIDI driver for Windows, would there be a way for the Live plug-in to talk directly with the MIDI driver and instruct it not to send duplicate MIDI data when the plug-in knobs are turned? In other words, could you have some bi-directional link between the plugins (and standalone editor, if needed) and the MIDI driver to prevent duplicating MIDI data?

I’d prefer the plug-in to work as you would “intuitively” expect it to (without having to set things up), with the knobs on the actual Sub37, the knobs in the plug-in, and all the MIDI data in sync with each other and not duplicating MIDI data. However, if Moog posted a very detailed walk-through procedure in Live on how to set things up, I could probably live with that too.

BTW, you guys are doing a great job with the editor! It’s infinitely easier to use than the Sub Phatty editor and most other Software Editors that I’ve used from other companies for other instruments.

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This was one of my thoughts too. I also think that the editor/plugin should work as intuitive a possible. When you use the hardware it should record as automation, but i use ableton mostly in its arrangement view at least when i need to record knob movements. What if you could use a option/ check box in the setup page or something like “Plugin recording behavior: CC , Automation, Both” Kind of like the Midi/usb/ both option. Let people choose if that is possible?