Voyager or Modular

The Moog Forum Minimoog Forum
1

Up until about a year ago, I have been a major advocate of software synthesizers and in many ways, I very much appreciate the broad range of sounds I can get from mine. I am sure my music will always use them for some compositions. However, my first truly electronic music album was Morton Subotnick’s Sidewinder, on vinyl followed by many other Subotnick classics also on vinyl.

Now mind you that Subotnick was not a Moog man but a Buchla man.

Truth be told, if I had the space and more importantly the money (if I were a rich man), I would get myself a 200e and be done with it. However, I am not and with limited funding such extravagence was out of my reach.

No offense to Moog but this is an incredible machine:

http://www.buchla.com/series200e.html

But I wanted something that was not just a computer program. Partly because plug ins do not always play well with DAWs but also because there seems to me something liberating about having and actual piece of harware.

So I looked at the Roland V-Synth for a while which don’t get me wrong, I like it expecially since I write experimental music but it was not a workstation and I wanted something that could almost go from composition to disk. I looked at the OASYS but it costs almost as much as a scaled down Buchla so that was out. I decided on a Korg M3. Great synth but of course digital. OK, it has a built in analogue emulatiion the Radius (good one) but still, it just runs a program. It is however a very sophisticatedc computer program with a keyboard, controllers and touch screen which is also a controller like the KAOS pad and great sounds, really great sounds. And its a very sophsticated effects processor.

That being said, I still longed for the sounds of Subotnick so my thoughts these days have turned towards modulars. Now modulars do have some huge drawbacks. Most significantly that you can’t save patches. A lot of fun I am sure, but I am a composer and spending all my time patching things and turning knobs with complex functions is perhaps not what I am really looking for. Fun would be high but actual music production not so high. The advantage of course is that I can always expand. But expand into what is my question? Sometimes I feel, simpler is better. It’s what I like about foogers. It focuses my energy into finding creative uses for them, thinking about music and performance and thinking out of the box.

Now I have looked at the Voyager and believe me, I like it! I have always loved the minimoog concept. Something not to simply but powerful enough to get a wide range of sounds and something that can be easily tweaked while playing.

As for not really having the Buchla sound? One partial solution I have: “vactrols”. One of the big reasons that Buchlas sound the way they do, the low pass gate with vactrol. An order from Allied Electronics and my vactrols arrived with buble wrap. A little work with a simply circut and I will have mine responding to CVs in no time. Put it in a box, one CV in and one CV out and there you go, a simple vactrol controler.

So what I am sayng is that I can use this on the Voyager expecially with expansion module. Combine that with my foogers (I love my foogers) and the M3, along with an Eventide Eclipse and I will have a pretty subtantial digital analogue hybrid that should give me some real sonic power.

Now mind you, I create experimental music so I am not just looking for a Moogy lead as nice as they are.

My question, and sorry it took a book to get there but its complex, is what should I do. Get a modular or a Voyager? For the cost of a voyager I can get a nice modular but here are some advantages of the Voyager.

  1. It has MIDI (no old school for me). Yes, I like CVs but why not have the best of both words and be able to save presets. A big advantage to me. I can also sync my Freqbox and Ring Modulator to the Voyager and with MIDI, I beleive, even the M3.

  2. It’s also not without some ability to do some patching expecially with the foogers and expansion module.

  3. I believe that the Voyager also can do some FM which opens up some more Buchla like sounds.

So what advice would you give me? I know there will be some bias here but I do want honest options.

Any help would be appreicated.

I am trying to build up a fund now either for a Voyager or a modular.

2

I have a Voyager and a modular. The advantage of the Voyager is that it’s self contained, has a keyboard and is immediate. The advantage of the modular is that it’s whatever you want it to be as long as you have the money and space.

Buy a used Voyager and use the left over money to start building a small modular. People here will suggest the Moog-like modulars but I would suggest eurorack format. Especially for experimental music. There are more ‘odd’ modules in eurorack and it’s affordable. Look at modules from Plan B (Who bases his designs on Buchla hence Plan B as a name…DO NOT buy direct from him you’ll never get your stuff. ONLY buy from a dealer like Big City Music.), Livewire, Malekko, Harvestman and Makenoise. Doepfer for your bread and butter modules.

Go here: http://mega.modularplanner.co.uk/standard.html (takes a long time to load works best in Firefox)

Also go here: http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/

Buy a module or two a month until you have the setup you want. Pick up a Kenton Pro 2000 or a Kenton Pro Solo and use that to run your modular via MIDI if you want to.

3

Honestly to me it sounds like you want a modular, but hear me out first on some stuff:

The Voyager+VX units is a very engaged semi-modular, with a lot of capabilities in a modular studio setup, and obvious a signature sound, but it’s by no means the end all be all, it’s a performance instrument more than anything else first.

Now, there’s a lot of different ways you can go.

Expansion was one of the areas you listed as a pro for a modular setup, but with a line mixer, you can, for instance, buy a couple of MF-107s and viola you have more oscillators to play with!

For multimode filtering, you could get a Sherman Filterbank, or, as I decided, a Future Retro XS, which again will give you even more modulation options and oscs, as well as a 12db LP/HP/BP/BR filter.

You’ll probably want to invest in a patchbay if you haven’t already as well; I’m using one for my Little Phatty and 3 moogerfoogers for CV duties, and well, that’s more or less a modular, albeit with a few less modulation options perhaps (although there’s already talk about possible mods for cv outs/new ins for the LP, so maybe MORE mod options then!) CP-251s are very very handy as well, and really even quite a few people with proper modulars use them as they are a great deal for all the circuits provided.

So: The whole point here is that in the end you can for the most part build a modular w/o having to commit to an actually modular of any particular european/us format or having to buy the expensive power supplies that are needed. You’ll also get a great midi controller out of the deal if you get a voyager/lp!

I chose going the “Frankensynth” as opposed to full blown modular format because it gave me the most flexibility, playability and bang for my buck. Semi-modulars are handy too for the simple fact that they are hardwired already to be ready to go when you just wanna play music.

Modulars on the other hand, require some effort before you can even spit out a simple envelope driven note from an osc. then you need to add the filter, etc. Not that it’s a super hassle, but it’s another step in the procedure that can kill creativity.

The one thing modulars will have over just getting a bunch of synths that can “talk to eachother” is that you’ll be able to pick and choose your modules to taste, which will, over time probably save you a little money and allow you to check out unique filters and weird stuff that wouldn’t otherwise be available in a self-contained format.

I’d say get a Voyager (RME might even be a better fit for you, that’s what I was using in this situation), and save up for a mini-modular system that you can use to run audio through. That way you can still use the cool unique filters. I know Doepfer has a tiny little modular case you can use for just these kinds of things (say 3-4 units or so) that’d probably do wonders for ya.

4

Thanks for all the advice. In many ways, you confirmed what I was thinking although I do like the Voyager as an instrument but yes, it is a performance instrument.

For me, as a composer, its more about what sounds I want. At the moment, my hardware and software can create great pads, incredibly flexible effects (Korg M3), and a whole host of instument sounds and special effects. But when I listen to Subotnick especially, I hear something different and it is my beleif that that has to do with analogue gear.

To be honest, I would prefer the convenient of MIDI and presets which is one of the thngs I like about the Voyager but I have to admit that the sounds that I hear from come of the modules out there is not part of the musical pallet I have right now

I think when I have the money I will invest in a rack and power supply for Eurorack. I agree on the Eurorack modules. This format has the most variety of modules to choose from and many which have the kind of sound I am looking for. I also agree the Doeffer is a great source for bread and butter modules. I would not make a whole system from them but they have a wide range of modules to fill in what others don’t do.

I also like Plan B although some have expressed some concerns to be about customer service and what you say about delivery time is certainly true. I will have to find a distrubuter. I have used Analogue Haven in the past and got a MIDI to CV converter from them (for my foogers). They were pretty quick and I had not problems with them. But I don’t think they have Plan B.

I like a lot of the Cynthia stuff and Livewire (which has some very unque filters.

I also like the Analogue systems pitch follower. Something I wish was n the fooger line.

I also do have two TRS patch bays and I may hook my foogers into them but right now having them close to one another on a rack makes them easy to work with. My only complaint would be that the position
of the 2nd row of foogers does not make it possible to use staight connections in the back. I had to get some right angle ones. The top is fine and I have my CP-251 on the bottom. All of them are hooked up to a Vodoo Labs power supply so the whole lot of them only requires one plug.

In regards to the Sherman Fitler Bank. I am aware of it and it did catch my eye but it sound harsh to me. More like circut bending which I am not into.

In the end, I want to take some time right now and figure out some of the techniques I want to use and the sounds (and modules) that will work with them. My music would be considered by most to be “out there”. Its funny that it the pop world, what is considered innovative seems so cliched to me. Entire genres are defined by just a few sounds. For example, the Euro sound or some of the bleeps and bloops of house music and the driving leads of techo.

You might way that my mentors are more from the past and from a more classical tradition. Pendericki, Ligeti, Messian, Stockhausen, Varese, Crumb, Xenakis and then in more modern times, Subotnick. I have learned from all of them by listening to their work. With a few exceptions, most of these did not write electronic music but if you study music history, the founded the roots of it. By learning their techniques I have found that they can be adapted to modern methods of synthesis.

Consider this that I composed based on some of Gryogy Ligieti’s work such as “Requium” and “Lux Aeterna”:

  1. File: Gyorgys Lament.mp3

https://www2.ibackup.com/qmanager/servlet/share?key=obybs32152

Right now I am listening to Crumb’s black angels and hope to adapt some of this to synthesizer.

I guess what I am saying si that what I look for in synths fits into a broader compositional need. I don’t want bread and butter sounds but ones that can be blended wth classical avant guarde techniques.

Thanks again for all the advice, it helps a lot to confirm my desire to get a modular. It just may take a bit to time.

5

Don’t even think about getting anything Plan B.

6

Could you elaborate at all? I have heard some bad things.

7

Sure:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/366402-modules-ordered-not-delivered.html

8

Wow. After reading those posts I would NEVER buy ANYTHING from Plan B. Not only is the customer service atrocious but…insulting your customers on public forums?!? WTF is that guy thinking…

9

That’s exactly what I’m saying. I feel sorry for those who lost their money on this Plan B fraud.

I am currently looking to buy a modular too, first option was a Serge but unfortunately they don’t offer any customization anymore. So, I am turning towards ModCan.

:slight_smile:

10

OK, thanks for the info. Good to know.

One of the reasons that attracted me to Plan B is that they have vactrols but so does Doepfer (the A101-2 Vactrol Loss Pass Gate).

I also like Cwejman and as I mentioned before Cynthia and some stuff from Analogue Solutions. Cwejman is expessive but they have a very good name.[/url]

11

Beware of quality issues if you want to buy a Cwejman S1. I know of someone who had quality issues with his (early) S1 and I don’t know to which extent they were resolved. Recent units might be different.

Doepfer? I don’t want to hear about Doepfer, at all. Very cheap quality - hence the price.

Do your homework, these are not cheap instruments…

12

Doepfer makes a lot of lot of modules for really cheap, relatively speaking. I might not base a world-travelling hardcore performance rig around them if I needed ultimate build quality and durability, but I think many of them are perfect for filling in the odd this and that in a home/studio setup. “bread and butter” modules as an earlier poster mentions. Cheap and cheerful.

Plan B stuff is just plain great. Some of my favorite modules I’ve ever used, and if you can find 'em secondhand or through a reputable dealer I recommend them without reservation. The stuff about Peter Grenader though, is just… man, I don’t know. It’s a damn shame; might be too late for an intervention at this point, but maybe not… I hope the guy gets his life together.

I think Cwejman stuff is fine now, qualitywise, from what I’ve heard. I can’t speak from experience on that one though.

CTRLSHIFT, I have gone a very similar route to you in my home studio (although with a few more standalone sequencers added to the mix) - the only thing I’m missing is the Virus. OTOH I have a Europa-fied Jupiter6, so that covers a lot of my polysynth needs right there…

Anyway… you can spark a lot of creativity with standalone instruments which have a lot of CV ins and outs. Much of the flexibility of the modular with a whole lot of nice bonus features.

But if you want to go Subotnick, you should seriously consider a small Eurorack modular setup. One option would be a Voyager (rack with VX-351 and VX-352) alongside a small Euro-cabinet stocked primarily with the extra pulse-gens, gate dividers and vactrol wobbulators that you don’t get from the Moog side. You can do great things with the Moog oscillators (and yes they FM quite nicely), but what you need alongside that is esoteric modulation sources.

Hope this helps,

Amos

13

I’ll get that Orb someday… :wink:

14

Well, the bottom line is that I am not going to get anything right now. I still have a few uncompleted projects that I want to complete, one is a physical PVC pipe resonator the I want to use with my foogers. I have the parts and with a bit of epoxy and some soldering I should have somethng I can start to experiment with.

I also want to develop a simple vactrol box also to use with the foogers I have. I have the vactrols and just need a box to put it in, some plugs, some soldering and I can also start experimenting with that.

On the composition side, I want to study some scores more closely expecially Ligeti and Crumb right now. I can’t get these for Subotnick but frankly I have read how he did some of his stuff and its painstaking. I can get Stockhausen’s but you have to send a check overseas and I am not even sure I would get something back. What is great is some of these come with extensive notes.

I do like to use some element of chaos is my music but I don’t really go for pure random notes like the the Wiard Wogglebug, The Buchla Source of Uncertainly or the S&H on the CP-251. Some randomness can work in quick bursts but I have been listening rather intently lately to George Crumb and he has given me some ideas but I have to study the scores.

Why do I mention this? I want there to be a need for the modular or Voyager before I buy one. OK, sure, having either would be fun but lately, amateur or not, I have taken my composition seriously. Unfortuntely, i’ts not my day job and frankly, the type of music I create would not bring in enough $s to make it a day job, I don’t even try to sell it, but I do try to study music theory enough that I kind of know what I am doing. I have never been a great musican but this type of music is something I can play. Most of what I do is really preformance oriented but I really layer sometimes several tracks together to get a certain effect I want often using many synths and effects to do it. Sometimes it simpler. Playing around with synths makes me happy but it does not necessarily produce good music.

What I want from an analogue and my foogers is a way to shape sound so that it produces uniique textures and short notes, sometimes percussive and sometimes slightly atonal that I can use as compositional elements. I am not so much interested in cliched filter sweeps, wah wah type effects, dirty distortion or circut bending. I am more interested in nuanced shades of timbre placed in compositions. I hear a lot of this in Subotnick which is why his work is an inspiration to me.

What I want is a good sonic pallete from which to work from that is not going to sound cliched at all. I want people to listen and think, wow, I have never heard anything like that before.

So for now, I want to learn more composition and start to develop some techiques which will fit in well with analogue type soudns.

15

S&H is pretty killer when used in moderation or mixed w/ other predominant modulations (say a ramp or triangle wave.) Gives a little wiggle to filters and osc pitch!

16

I guess I never thought about sample and hold that way but you have a point. It amazes me how many videos of synths I see always show someone using a sequencer or drum machine and then fooling around with resonance and filter cuttoff or using sample and hold or some type of random voltage generator. I have a sample and hold of the CP-251 so I will have to try experimenting with this technique. Thanks.

17

Kinda like this!

The Euro rack conatins several Buchla inspired modules including the Makenoise Wogglebug, Plan B model 15 and model 13 and the Deopfer A-143-1! All of these minus the 143 contain vactorals. In the photo my Voyagers oscillators are being processed via the model 13 vactoral based low pass gate which is a clone of on Buchla 292.

So it’s Buchla and Moog interacting for some good fun! :smiley:

18

I absolutely low your setup! All that is unfamiliar to me is the yellow synth. Never seen one of these before. I see the foogers on top. I also like your rack. It looks like you added some fo the shelves. Do you mind me asking where you got this? I would love to have a three shelf setup. Right now I have the M3, a tilt rack for the foogers and then another rack for a patch bay and my eventide but I would love to have something more like this.

I also like the idea that you are controlling the voyager with a Buchla inspired LPG. Great integration.

19

The yellow synth is the Waldorf Q. It’s a VA with a crapload of features.

An interesting note is that the VX-351 translates MIDI into CV data coming through the Voyager. As such my Waldorf’s sequencer, arpeggiator and keyboard can control the Voyager which in turn can translate the Q’s MIDI data into a gate and 1V/oct CV which I then use to control my Euro’s oscillators (which have 1V/oct CV iputs) and clocks (A160/161). It’s a complete integration with seemingly unlimited possibilities. :smiley:

The stand/shelf can be found here:

http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/product/OnStage-Stands-KS7903-3Tier-AFrame-Keyboard-Stand?sku=452069

The Voyager, foogers and Euro case are sitting on fiber board I picked up at either Lowe’s or Home Depot. They work well with the stand.

Also, the Voyager’s oscillators are being routed to the m13 via the mixer i/0. The m13’s gates are being controlled/opened by the touch surface gate output on the 351. This is a fun performance trick and the sound is amazing.

20

Nice toys, can you post some work?

Also, could you please elaborate on how exactly the VX-351 converts MIDI into CV?

I’m considering buying one and that would be an excellent feature that would definitely seal the deal :smiley: