I have complex thoughts and feelings on this issue. I am 100% for the LGBT community having the same rights and protections as other people. I want them to be able to legally marry and such.
I absolutely don’t want biological men in womens restrooms or biological women in mens restrooms. It is wrong to label that paranoia. If my daughter goes into a restroom in the park I want to know for sure something is wrong if a man enters that restroom, gay or straight I need to know… I would be glad to pay more taxes to have neutral gender restrooms installed in all public buildings though. I want everyone to be comfortable.
At the same time that I want all rights of the LGBT community protected I have some criticism of people in that community. I have worked with many gay men-- a lot of them. The degree of promiscuity in a large part of that community is disordered and addictive. There is very little monogamy even in relationships that claim the label. Having more than one sex partner in an evening out is not uncommon for many in that community. I don’t think that is good for anyone-- certainly not for the gay men I have counseled who feel deeply pressured to engage in unhealthy sexual practices or be left out of the dating pool. I know there are exceptions to this but it is common. If this goes on only in private then it is only hurting the people who are willingly involved, but it bleeds out into the public sphere.
If you walk through the park near my office at night it is not uncommon to catch men hiding in the trees performing sex acts on one another… the bathrooms are unusable because of the bodily fluids spewn about the floor…
I wanted to take my wife and daughter to a gay pride parade just to show support to that community so I did some research on google and ended up watching some footage of gay pride parades. It is no exaggeration to say that what goes on there in public is not appropriate for children and certainly nothing I would even want to see myself. Dildo flags, men in leather chaps mimicking sexual acts on floats, people dressed as demons mimicking sex with nuns, inappropriate nudity and almost every costume is sexualized… I think there is something wrong with that.
I am still and always have been fully in support of the LGBT community having all of the rights and protections as other people but If the LGBT community wants to continue to have my support then some of this has to change or I will stop supporting it. If the goal is to help hetero sexuals get over their sexual inhibitions unitl public sex acts are considered normal then I will have start voting differently. I respectfully bring this up with members of that community whenever possible. The LGBT community needs to address this when meeting as a community in the public sphere and start policing its members…
It’s amazing how you all can act so persecuted when people call you on persecuting someone else. If you don’t like that Moog supports LGBTQI rights – I’m sure they’d be okay with never receiving your money again.
Oh, and please don’t suggest your hatred is supported by the bible – Jesus preached love and tolerance, not being judgmental jerks.
If one thing is clear, it’s that this issue has a tendency to polarize people.
I support Moog in their desire to stand up against the tyranny of unconscionable laws.
Is this really the place to discuss this stuff though? Moog is now an employee run company and there’s no way in hell that they could have gone ahead with their announcement unless they had 100% backing by all employee-owners. So all this tells us is that they are 100% in agreement.
I don’t wish to change anyone’s mind regardless of the stance they take. This is the Internet after all and we’ve all seen how futile that can be.
Moog came out with a statement that reflects the opinion of all employee-owners. Great. Now let’s get on with our creative endeavors.
“Exclusion limits our path to progress and denies our living connection to each other.”
You have finally realized the point that most missed.
If it is in any way not appropriate to discuss it here, can it possibly be right to be discussed in business e-mail sent to customers? And for all of those who missed the irony of the thread I started.. and proceeded to recite their stump speeches and fly their flags and insult each other and presume to know what someone else is thinking or feeling and believing..and suggested that people sell their Moog products or leave the country or just plain go to hell…you have demonstrated to Moog what a huge mistake they have made.
Happy Easter to you Stephen and to every person on this forum no matter what you think or feel or believe or who you vote for. And to all the Moog employees who make magnificent products that I cherish, thank you for your great work, stick to that please. Never send me an activist e-mail again. Respect me as I respect you.
“Free will consists of the power to choose one’s actions, what it does not consist of, is the power to choose the consequence of those actions”
-Thomas Aquinas
Jesus also commanded us to sin no more and to spread the gospel to the world. And just remember that Jesus’s tolerance of thieves in the temple was within the realm of ejecting them from the house of His Father.
Jesus also taught, “Let he who has not sinned, cast the first stone.”
If you believe the bible, then you should realize Judgement is not your domain.
You are supposed to trust God to be the judge. If you believe in Jesus’ message, then you should love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus was the friend of the poor, the persecuted, and the outcasts. Including people seen as “Sinners.”
Amazingly, yet another “Christian” believes they need to “spread the gospel” of Jesus, by thinking they know what God’s judgement is and judging others. If you are afraid of Trans people because rape has happened before, you damn well better be afraid of Priests. I think Moogs position is way more Christ like than all this bullshit. End of discussion as far as I am concerned.
I can’t speak for MC, but for me, this has absolutely nothing to do with being “afraid of Trans people.” Sex-segregated restrooms exist to protect women from sexual assault. Since transwomen are biological men, they are just as likely to commit rape, especially considering many choose not to have “bottom surgery” (e.g. Dana McCallum). Allowing anyone who “self-identifies as a woman” into women’s restrooms and locker rooms also invites perverted men to exploit this.
People who are unable to defend their position logically always resort to ad hominem attacks (“bigot,” “transphobic,” etc.) and then silence opposition (“this is not the place to discuss this anyway”).
This. This is the elephant in the room that many people cannot seem to see even though it is plainly obvious. I want to live in a secular society that works for everyone. People who are seeking to protect the rights of the LGBT community need to be careful not to let their judgment of others religious beliefs keep them from thinking clearly themselves. Saying that religious people are motivated by bigotry is not different than saying all gay men are pedophiles…
If supporting that community means I have to expose society to oversexualizaton and risky behaviours of gay and straight men, then I find that unacceptable. We need to move through all of this slowly and thoroughly and not let our feelings keep us from being clear. We can find a solution and a society that works for everyone if we are willing.
Why is it that our message of repentance from a sinful life is twisted to fit the definition of “hate” and “bigotry”?
Because it is posited that this lifestyle is “sinful” and that those who engage in such behavior should “repent” diminishes those people as somehow less than respectable. It belittles them as human beings. Saying such things about people in public is shameful and hurtful. Those scriptures argue that people in that lifestyle deserve death, and are excluded from the kingdom of heaven. Because of teachings such as this, there are death penalties all over the world for people being ACCUSED of homosexuality. There is, therefore, a causation between the scriptural view that something is “an abomination” and persecution of individuals who engage in that behavior, especially through the legislative efforts of the religious right in the United States.
If people want to repackage that as something which isn’t bigotry, then they have an uphill battle to climb.
And there is no evidence whatsoever that “sin” exists, and because such edicts of “morality” come from a library of ancient works written by people with no concept of biology, then there are absolutely no grounds upon which to demonize said lifestyle.
Sexual dimorphism is simply a fact of biology (intersex is extremely rare, and unrelated to the recent phenomenon of transgenderism); you cannot change your chromosomes with surgery or artificial hormones.
Sexual dimorphism is not the rule. There are species which are asexual. Studies have shown that gender can be forced. The existence of intersex individuals, (no matter how rare), the existence of gender related vestigial structures in the human body, the existence of both male and female hormones in the human body, and the existence of innumerable medical conditions which arise from hormonal and chemical imbalances, are evidence of a biological component to homosexuality and gender dysphoria. Furthermore, there are gender determining genes which are NOT associated with the Y chromosome. So arguing solely on the basis of X and Y Chromosomes is oversimplification.
Saying that religious people are motivated by bigotry is not different than saying all gay men are pedophiles…..
In the context of anti-LGBT rhetoric and legislation designed specifically to discriminate against them I think I have illustrated why this statement is false.
I will not stay silent on a forum I frequent while people argue fallaciously about the civil rights of other human beings.
This thread should be removed by the moderators. It’s annoying and pointless, and can only get uglier and uglier with time.
Like Gaear Grimsrud said to Jerry Lundegaard’s kidnapped wife, gagged, tied-up and whining in the back of the getaway car in the film Fargo: “shut the fock up, or I’ll throw you back into the trunk ya know !”
We are mostly on the same page man and can disagree in either case respectfully. You said–
“In the context of anti-LGBT rhetoric and legislation designed specifically to discriminate against them I think I have illustrated why this statement is false.”
That’s half true. I agree that it is wrong to discriminate against the LGBT community and I want them all to have the same protections and rights as any other group also. America is a secular country and I want it that way. In the NC laws though is the bathroom issue which I think needs to be parsed out differently. That’s why I am suggesting we all take a step back and just go through all of this carefully and slowly.
As a Christian I have to say this-- if any group owes an amends, or has abused its power and caused harm to the LGBT community it is the Christians. Christianity has enjoyed and abused social power and political power and turned a blind eye or worse, contributed to the abuse of people within the LGBT community. Much of the anger towards Christianity in the LGBT community is justified and would not be there if only people within Christianity were not so damn complacent and allowing of the kinds of abuses we see in our country and around the world. By way of commission or omission a great deal of pain and sorrow has been heaped on that community and a long slow amends ought to be felt and made by Christians everywhere.
We all have a long way to go on this issue. To all the people that say this topic does not belong on this forum I think your right and will now cease to contribute to this thread. Peace to everyone and let’s all try to get through these issues without hating one another.
Previously known as " You have heard that it was said unto those of old..but I say unto you"
Like the line in Tropic Thunder " You went full retard, you never go full retard"…you Went Full Jesus, you never go full Jesus.
And the grandiose line with which you end it all.. is as if you have just done something of historic import, like the Gettysburg Address or the Sermon on the Mount, and we have all been enlightened by it, and “all the crooked paths were made straight”
You merely chimed in, you just put in your 2 cents like everybody else. No more or less.
Doty, I believe. You yourself are here proposing a morality though you appear to be oblivious to it, which is merely ..ought-ought not, must-must not.
So tell us…from whence does a RIGHT derive and what is the sound and sure method of deducing that there is such a particular RIGHT ? Go beyond …Doty Saith Unto You.
Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity,Islam,Judaism have a well documented body of work but please give us the inductive and deductive method of the authoritative Dogma of Dotyism.
I haven’t been back here in a long time, mostly because this forum has gotten boring. But I love this shit!!! This is the best thread ever. Any chance I get to bash religious ignorance and my backwards home state I will take. The south is a cauldron of bible belt ignorance and intolerance. I have gotten so used to living in the multicultural utopia of the San Francisco bay area, I had forgotten how awful it is there. I am half asian and experienced racism my entire life there. It’s crazy to live in a place where everyone is accepted for who they are, then hearing about this kind of crap back in Cackalack.
But this is something Moog should be proud of, and this and everywhere else is EXACTLY the place to bring it up and hash it out. Moog is smart, they know most people who buy their gear are tolerant liberals (and “tolerance” does not mean tolerance of INTOLERANCE) and the bigots who whine about their politics have to put up with it, because moog gear is superb.
This whole thing of it being impolite to talk about religion and politics is a big pile of crap designed by people who can’t defend their irrationality. It should never be impolite, or at least the impoliteness shouldn’t matter when you know that righteousness, tolerance for individual rights of equality and identity, and the death of religious ignorance is the way of the 2st century. People who are homophobic or transphobic have a NOTHING argument, they have NOTHING to say. There is no legitimate argument against every single person having all the rights of others. it’s called the equal protection clause of the US constitution, for those who feign loyalty to that document. Not just equal protection for people you like and agree with, but for all. We all have or should have the rights too live how we want with whatever identity we want. Trust me, I get creeped out by trannies and male gay affection all the time just like every right wing theocratic nutjob out there, but I also get creeped out by old people having sex. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be able to do whatever they want as long as they don’t impinge on the rights of others. Just like trump and the KKK and David Duke should be allowed to meet and plan their fascist conspiracy secretly, because that’s their right as americans.
And to everyone, don’t be scared of a little controversy, wherever it may come up. Important things should not be censored, and no place is too sacred for important discussion. This is the internet, have some thick skin. And it’s just one thread, you are free to ignore it if you want. The supreme court has roundly rejected prior restraint. I got buddies who died face down in the muck so you and I could enjoy this forum.
You know not scripture for you conveniently neglect to mention that not only was Jesus a friend of the poor, the persecuted, and the outcast he also encouraged people NOT TO SIN. Over and over he pleaded “Sin no more”. Jesus challenging those to cast the first stone was to tell christians they are not to judge, but to forgive and to warn the unrepentant that they will have to account for their sins before God on the day of Final Judgement. That is not being judgmental, that is informing of dire consequences. We are ALL sinners and must learn to forgive others. I will not deny that there are Christians who get it wrong and I understand why people are angry with them.
The true Christian understands that judgement is reserved to God, but Jesus commanded his disciples and the Christians in the NT to spread the Gospel and remind the world that they will be accounted for their sins unless they repent in their heart and sin no more.
Like the tempter in the desert, atheists distort scripture to try to shame people into submitting. Those of us who are not weak in scripture are not so blind. If you reject God’s word then atheists have no justification to use it against Christians, because like Jesus we will call you out on your error “you know not scripture”. If you reject scripture that defines sin then Christians will call you out on your error because there are three verses that warn against adding to or taking away from God’s Word. All sinners are welcome in church, but sinners have no place in demanding that the church conform to their sinful lifestyle. Jesus made that crystal clear when he threw out the “den of thieves” in the temple.
MC,
I have respect for you as a very long-time member of this forum, but the manner in which you are arguing is very poor. You certainly have a right to respond to criticism of your beliefs, but your characterization of atheists begs me to ask what have I done to deserve such vitriol?
Like the tempter in the desert, atheists distort scripture to
This is a fallacious statement, a blanket generalization.
If you reject God’s word then atheists have no justification to use it against Christians
When the message of scripture spills out of the theological realm and causes quantifiable harm to society through discriminatory legislation then people absolutely have justification.
If you reject scripture that defines sin then Christians will call you out on your error because there are three verses that warn against adding to or taking away from God’s Word.
Adding or taking away from scripture is more likely a result of things unrelated to your argument:
a)Scribes copying scrolls making intentional and unintentional errors
b)Theologians such as Marcion of Sinope who made tendentious emendations to the texts or authors such as those who penned The Gospel of Thomas after phrases found in Mark.
sinners have no place in demanding that the church conform to their sinful lifestyle
“The Church” has no Constitutional basis for expecting the Government of the United States to recognize scriptural proclamations.
People can talk, talk, talk all they like, but you put your beliefs into action. Beyond that the rest of this thread is just noise. I agree with thealien666, the thread serves no purpose but argument. Like every other message board on the Internet; no one will have any fundamental change in believes as a result of this thread.
