I install the latest firmware and editor. 1.1.20 / 0.9.39
Everything went smooth.
Open the editor and was working.
The problem what I found was, that mod 1 lfo 1 rate was not working when I turn the knob on the sub 27 hardware.
So I took a init and the problem was still the same. mod 1 lfo 1 rate was not moving in the editor.
Also push the sync button to see if there was the problem. but no.
Later I found out that mod 2 lfo 2 rate hat the same problem.
So I thought…Maybe the firmware or the editor where not installed properly.
I update the firmware again.
Erase all the prefs and started again.
Was not working. Same problem.
This all happens in windows 7 with Moog usb midi driver and the Microsoft update.
Then I went to my OSX and try this…and
Same problem.
OK…Then I install the 1.1.19 / 0.9.39 and the problem was still there.
Also in in OSX.
OK I install the old 1.1 firmware and the problems still remains.
After some hours trying to fix this problem like other firmware ( I think I have try all of them.)
The problem remains.
You can watch a video what I did to show you what I mean. Better then to read my story…I am not so good in English.
I just turn the knobs on the Sub 37.
Hope you can help.
I think that I have brick my Sub 37 with Beta firmware.
“brick” is a pretty strong term to be using. The synth is working and playing, it’s not a brick!
What you are seeing is related to SYNC for the LFOs. When SYNC is on, then turning the hardware RATE knobs is editing the LFO Clock Divisions. I am sure you know this intuitively from playing with the instrument. Still, I can see how it is confusing when you look at the editor.
Still, it was showing you what was really happening all the time. SYNC is enabled, you turn an LFO RATE knob, and you see in real-time that the Clock Divisions setting is changed. This is a correct depiction of what has always happened within the hardware.
We can update the Editor so that the picture of the LFO Rate knob still turns… but in fact… when you are editing Clock Division (while the LFO SYNC is turned on), it’s really not changing the “LFO RATE” parameter… it’s just that this parameter LFO RATE controls only the free-running rate of the LFO when SYNC is off, it has no effect while the LFO is synced to clock. So really it would be less accurate to show the Rate knob moving in the plug-in, in the case where SYNC is on and you are turning the hardware knob (which is really editing Clock Div at the time).
What do you think is the best solution? Or is it OK now that you have an explanation for the current behavior?
Thanks Amos for checking this.
What you are writing is correct. I should be like this.
And it is also a great feature. Can not be without it…But
But my problem is that…when sync is not highlighted. The knobs should be moving…Or not??
And that is not working for me.
Sent one more video…
Ok just look the video and maybe you understand my problem.
And this problem is all the time there. after putting many different firmware updates and whatever.
Maybe I am very stupid and do not understand the whole story about the editor…But one thing I know…
It has never been like this.
Check it out my friend.
powered on the Sub37, then started the editor (V 1.1.16 / 0.9.37)
Sync (LFO1) was OFF- Rate LFO1 worked
Sync (LFO2) was ON - Clock Divider LFO2 worked also
switched off Sync (LFO2) - Rate LFO2 was NOT working
switched Sync (LFO1) ON and OFF - now LFO2 Rate worked!
Then I switched off the Sub, closed the editor, powered on the sub and started the editor again:
The strange behaviour changed, now I wasn’t able to get LFO1 Rate working!
It seems the Rate - either for LFO1 or LFO2 - only work by chance.
This was with Firmware 1.1.16 and Editor V 0.9.37.
Then I installed Firmware 1.1.20 and Editor V 0.9.39, deleted prefs (went smoothly btw).
From start (both Sub37 and Editor)
now, Clock Divider LFO2 did NOT work, but when I switched LFO1 (!) Sync ON and Off, Clock Divider LFO2 worked again!
and from then onwards everything worked.
It seems the behaviour is unpredictable, especially when just updated, but now I can’t get it working wrong.
OK, well no matter what the intended behavior, it must work in a consistent way.
Inconsistent behavior is a problem for sure. I appreciate you checking it out.
I’m digging into this today, and will post an update with what I find.
IMHO, the best behavior would be that in SYNC mode, the Scale for the LFO RATE would change to display the Clock Division values and the knob keeps moving like the hardware does.
Hi Luloop! I just checked your second video. At around 0:10s, when you are showing that SYNC is OFF and LFO2 Rate is not moving when you turn the knob… look at the Clock Divider, it is very clearly changing. This tells me that the problem is that the Editor is not mirroring the hardware exactly. The evidence suggests that at this moment, LFO 2 SYNC was really ON on the hardware… but showing OFF in the Editor.
I can reproduce this if I change the LFO SYNC state on the hardware while the Editor is closed, and then open the Editor. In this case, the saved state of the preset in the Editor is different from the “live” state of the preset on the hardware, which I changed (without saving anything yet) while the Editor was closed.
I’ll investigate further, but so far I’m not seeing any scenario where the LFO RATE knob fails to put out MIDI. It always either puts out the MIDI for LFO Rate, or the MIDI for Clock Division, depending on the state of LFO SYNC for that LFO (on the hardware, not the state within the editor, in the unfortunate case where they are different). How these states can become different from one another, is the thing I need to check next.
[edit] actually I’m wrong about being able to put the editor out of sync by changing SYNC setting on the hardware while the editor is closed… on launching the editor it gets the real state of the hardware, and this seems to consistently be working for me. It seems it’s more difficult to get the editor and hardware out of sync with one another (which is good, but still needs more investigation).
For me, if I press SYNC a couple of times on the hardware, it seems as if something is getting stuck and the software does not get any readouts from the hardware anymore. At least for some time. Then all of a sudden it’s back to normal.
Someting more: It seems that MOD2 is generally not reading the hardware correctly after a preset change.
Select B15-P1 (“Init Preset”)
Move LFO 1 RATE on hardware → Rate 1 knob moves in editor
Move LFO 2 RATE on hardware → Rate 2 knob does not move in editor, instead the Clock Division is changed
Switch SYNC on and off for LFO 2
Move LFO 2 RATE on hardware → Rate 2 knob moves in editor
In my testing I can see where if I toggle SYNC on/off a bunch of times, the editor SYNC state can get out of “sync” with the hardware.
(obviously, this is a problem and I will investigate further)
However I have yet to see any case where the MIDI being received by the editor was not acted upon; it was always changing either clock division or LFO rate. There was always one or the other response from the Editor when turning the hardware Rate knob. Furthermore, the response from the editor was always correct with respect to the SYNC state of the hardware, not the state of the editor (in the case where the editor state didn’t match the hardware). This makes sense since it’s the hardware which is sending MIDI when you turn the knob, and the hardware refers to its own state when determining whether to send out a Rate or a Clock Division update.
This problem would have been solved by having only one numeric parameter which either set the LFO rate or was an index to the clock-division settings, depending on SYNC state. But I hadn’t thought of that yet when designing the preset structure, so there are two separate parameters with separate CC/NRPN assignments, one for Rate and one for Clock Division per LFO. That’s why the hardware is sending a different message depending on Sync state, in the first place…
I just re-loaded the factory presets on my Sub 37…
as of last official batch of factory presets, SYNC is ON for LFO 2 on the Init Presets.*
So, your result above is expected since B15-P1 loads up with SYNC enabled for LFO 2. At least, that’s what I see here.
Some further interesting news… I find, using MIDI Monitor, that every time I toggle LFO SYNC on the hardware, the editor is asking for the complete MIDI CC Map to be sent from the hardware to the editor… which the hardware outputs, some >200 bytes of sysex data. Every time SYNC is toggled on/off. That’s probably an unnecessary action and it could be causing some problems… digging deeper.
a note about the Init Preset… actually there were some complaints that it was confusing to have LFO Sync turned on, for the Init Preset. So you will find in the new firmware, if you hold the PANEL button to perform an Init on any preset, that the init settings which are loaded have SYNC turned off for both LFOs. However this doesn’t change the state of the already-existing Init Presets which shipped with your hardware… they probably still have SYNC turned on for LFO2. This discrepancy may itself cause confusion later… when we update the production line to the new firmware, we’ll load new factory presets which have the “blank” presets matching the new Init Preset settings.
that’s interesting, because it’s not what I find on my Sub 37!
If I select any of the Init Presets (Bank 10 through 16), the SYNC button on MOD 2 is not active!
Mine is a fairly new one, I think. If I read the serial number plate correctly it was built in August 2015.
Original firmware was 1.1.0.
OK, well I was loading the Factory Presets file from older firmware v1.0.7… maybe we have already updated this on the production line. The request for LFO Sync to be turned off, on the Init Presets, is not a new one. I don’t remember exactly when the change was made.
Although, oddly enough, the behavior you got seems consistent with LFO 2 sync being actually on.
perhaps you could post here or email to me, your B15-P1 Init Preset? double-check to be sure it still acts strangely with Editor v0.9.40 first… that is, load this preset and see if the Editor is changing LFO2 Rate or LFO 2 Clock Div when you turn the LFO 2 Rate knob on the hardware… and compare the state of the LFO 2 SYNC button on hardware vs. in editor… see if the results are consistent with what you expect, or not. If not, send me a copy of the preset you’re testing and I’ll check it here.
I tried it again with Editor 0.9.40, and it seems to work now!
FYI, please find the B15-1 Init Preset attached. One version from the Hardware Bank folder, the other one recorded SysEx in Cubase as sent from the Sub 37. B15-1 Init Preset.zip (1016 Bytes)
It’s to not working, as described above.
Although the hardware is sending two different controllers (Balance (coarse), or Data Entry (fine)), the Editor always changes the Clock Division.
I observed this also for a moment. Sync was off, but editor was adjusting clock divisions.
By the time I could open MIDI Monitor to confirm the hardware was really sending CC3 / CC8, the problem was gone.
I did click Capture Hardwrae before this, so maybe that fixed it.
Closed/reopened editor and it’s working normally now. But I definitely saw the problem when I first looked for it.
