I have recently jumped full-bore into Moogland after wanting one for a looooong time. I got a Little Phatty (the Nova edition with CV Out mod), and two Slims. I’ve set everything up in Polyphonic, but am seeing some behavior I don’t understand…
First off, I am seeing that if you play a string of notes, that one of the three voices seems to have a different envelope, making every third one sound different and more “emphasized”, like: bom-bom-BOM-bom-bom-BOM-bom-bom-BOM. I can’t pin it to a certain Phatty, but I think it’s the LP, because every time I see this, the Pitch and Mod wheels flash. (I know I did a horrible job explaining that…sorry)
Also, when I switch through presets, I inexplicably “lose” a voice sometimes, so that when I try to play a three-note chord, only a couplet comes out. It seems like messing with all three units’ volume knobs can sometimes revive it, but I don’t understand the rhyme or reason.
I’ve pored over the manuals to try to find the answer, but I’m afraid I can’t find it. Anyone know what I’m doing wrong?
Joe, latest firmware for all versions is v660. Make sure this version is loaded to all units…
make sure the Little Phatty is sending midi Volume commands (master menu, system utilities, send cc: ALL)
this way you can turn the volume knob on the LP and it should set the volume the same on all units.
Make sure all units are using the same preset bank…
lastly, you can use the output on/off buttons to quickly mute individual units to find out for sure which one is the odd one out…
Assuming you are running all three units to a line mixer somewhere, you should be able to set the LP volume to maximum on all units and then adjust the volume levels on your mixer until all voices have the same level.
Thanks, Amos! I’ll try your suggestions, but I think they’re all as you describe (except firmware, which is at 659). I’ll post back to the thread my results!
So, I tried everything mentioned – firmware up’d to 660, made sure “send cc: ALL” was set properly, recalibrated notes and OSC2 – and the setup still behaves the same…
i will need to spend more time with a poly setup to see if I can reproduce your findings.
if the problem is that one voice is louder in amplitude than the others, how is it that adjusting the mix level of that voice on your mixer doesn’t fix it?
Is there some other sonic difference with this one voice as well? can you analyze more precisely what the difference is? that might help.
Well, it’s almost like the filter envelope behaves differently on the Little Phatty than on the other voices. Kinda like the EGR Amount is set differently. So, it’s not necessarily that it’s louder, just that it has a different emphasis…if that makes sense.
One thing I noticed is that in the most recent update to the manual, it mentions a final connection from the last Phatty’s MIDI OUT back to the MIDI IN of the first, which is different from the instructions on the YouTube video demonstrating Polychaining. Do I need to do this, perhaps?
From the manual:
If you have more than two Moog synths, > connect them so that MIDI passes through each synth and the last is connected to the first; > but make sure that the first synth does NOT pass MIDI through to the next, or you will create a MIDI feedback loop. The “first synth” in this descrip- tion should always be the one on which you are playing the keys. If the first synth is an LP, make sure MIDI MERGE is turned OFF on this synth. If the first synth is a Voyager, make sure that you are connecting MIDI OUT from it to the MIDI IN on the second synth; do not use the MIDI THRU jack on the first synth, only on subsequent synths (voice 2 or higher).
Oh, and I realize I’m probably opening up another can of worms here, but are the CV ins/outs only applicable to the LP voice (as opposed to the SPs, too)?
maybe the EG amount does have a different response on the LP than on the Slims. turn of sending MIDI CCs from the Little Phatty (midi setup-> send CCs: WHEELS or OFF) and adjust the filter EG amount on the LP until it matches the SPs, then save the sound on the LP. It’s entirely possible you may need to subtly tweak the voices on different units to match more precisely; there could be some amount of difference between the analog circuits. Never much difference (within 5% I’d say), but if it’s in the right critical parameters you could certainly notice it, I would think. Discrete analog componentry can behave this way.
As for the CV outputs, they carry voltages from the Little Phatty analog board. Nothing to do with the Slim Phattys, although you could certainly connect LP CV outputs to SP CV inputs…
lastly the MIDI chaining - it works both ways… maybe it’s actually better to do it the way you’re doing it (just midi out of LP to midi in of slim 1, midi thru on slim 1 to midi in on slim 2). That certainly works. Only difference should be that in the scenario where you have local control off on the LP and you have midi thru on slim2 connected to MIDI in on the LP… in that case you are using the LP as a MIDI controller and all voices are getting exactly the same MIDI parameter values. In the first case, the LP has local control on, and if you turn a knob on the LP, the LP will get a slightly different parameter value (the direct knob value) where the Slims will be getting a MIDI version of that knob value. Hope this makes any sense… the short answer is, I think this isn’t the issue and the way you have MIDI running is probably OK. You could try it both ways and see if one is better.
Thanks much, Amos. This is much more than 5%, I’d say. But I’ll fool around with it. It’s like if you’re playing piano and say, your index finger is much stronger than the others and every note you hit with it has a different timbre from the others… I have to believe it’s something wonky in my setup, because otherwise I think polyphony would be a bit useless. It’s almost like a different voice. But I am brand new to analog synths and MIDI intricacies (I’m a guitar player by day), so I’ll forge ahead.
I figured as much with the CV In/Out setup. I may need to homebrew a multiplier so that I can at least send the CV Outs from the LP to all the additional SPs. I wish they were tied to all the voices and not just the LP’s, but I can get creative, I suppose. (And the MP-201 gets rid of one of the issues! )
Now, go get a beverage of choice and I’ll fiddle with this and report back tomorrow… Thanks again!
What it seems like to me is that in Poly mode, the Legato On setting seems not to be respected by the LP. That is, every time the voice assigned to the LP is triggered, the envelope is too, even if it’s a legato passage with the prior note coming from one of the SPs. Again, I probably butchered that description due to my limited experience in synthesis…
What I would expect is that the Poly mode is “smart” in the sense that it knows when other voices are being triggered so that in the round robin scheme, when it comes back to voice #1 (assuming that’s the one the LP is producing), if the voice prior to it was sounding at that instant, that it would not retrigger the filter envelope. I.e., the same behavior as when in Monophonic mode.
Does this make sense, is it agreed to be an “issue”, and if so, is it firmware-addressable?
yes that does make sense. Right now, you can’t play “legato” across multiple voices; each one is independent. Legato only obtains when playing a single voice in mono mode.
I’ll check some other poly synths and see how they handle this, if they do… maybe I can make poly mode smarter than it is now.
Amos and Joe Moog I have noticed this as well, and my setup is duo-phonic right now. Some of the Phatty patches are more noticable than others in how the sound “jumps out”. Joe I do believe you are right, in that it is how the Phatty retriggers the envelope on the key press. A round robin voice on/off option may be a good one?
posted this in another thread but I think it’s worth reposting here:
You may have to re-voice the patch on one instrument to make it sound more like the other. The same numeric parameter values may not sound exactly the same on every analog board. This isn’t an issue when you play each one in isolation but if you want them to sound like multiple voices of the same instrument you may have to tweak the settings on one and re-save the patch on that instrument.
Yeah, I’m not worried about those subtle differences – in fact I like this because I think it adds character. What I’m describing is definitely the envelope re-triggering issue…
)
Thanks again!