My idea for a nice synth. Comments please? :)

Ok, I’d love to see a modern-day Arp 2500.
Make it scaled down slightly in size, use electronic switching and bussing instead of the slide switches, realize all the sound circuitry with mostly discreet parts (transistors instead of opamps), but then a CPU that does a background “watch dog” function to keep everything autotuned, along with high accuracy ADCs and DACs to make it all programmable with recall. MIDI and external analog I/O, of course.
The pots could have over 16 million possible settings, for example.
No stepping or zippering.

You’d get a synth with nice tonal characteristics, pots and controllers with such high resolution you wouldn’t know they’re not analog, the beauty of the 2500’s multing system and general layout and none of the drift, unrepeatability or crosstalk.
Everything programmable too. Even program sequencing.

The slide switches could be color-coded square lit pushbuttons instead.
Have large matrices of buttons easy to push and visually identify.
That could make it really neat to look at and easier than looking down the rows of the 2500, one of it’s larger criticisms.
(If you’ve ever programmed a 2500, you know what I’m talking about.) :slight_smile:

Both original style 2500 modules could be duped and newer things like quantizers offered.
The original graphics could be included with arrows pointing to patch busses, etc.
The buttons (instead of slide switches) could be exclusive (only one lit at a time: original style) or be from or to multiple sources or destinations.
(press more than one at a time.)
Visual matrix routing ala Arp 2500, but brought into the modern day equivalent. :slight_smile:

The downside would be the cost.
Something like this could only be realized via surface mount technology.
That doesn’t bug me and can actually increases accuracy when you’re talking about matched components, but it would be more difficult to service or mod.
The main enclosure would cost the most too.
It would be filled with high quality buttons, circuitry, connectors, power supply and the case itself.

So…a slightly smaller Arp 2500, lit like a Christmas tree, all programmable and great discrete tone?
Neat idea or silly dream?

Perhaps an open-source release that provides support for other companies to develop modules for it too?
A modular that could expand with time? :slight_smile:
It could lead to other people making modules for it, so it wouldn’t become obsolete.

How many people would buy such a synth and at what cost?
What would it actually cost to build in a small number like 400?

Anyway, that’s my idea for something possible given money, talent and today’s technology.
No idea if it could ever be profitable, but I think it would be a really nice synth if done like this.

I have no doubt someone could make a virtual equivalent, but it just wouldn’t sound or feel the same.

Any comments? :question:

Alan, are you listening?

In my absolutely non-expert, (maybe even talking through my own a$$ :laughing: ) opinion, considering the economy as it is, the way prices are going up, disposable income rapidly disappearing, and that people like us tend to be more of a niche market, I think it would be very expensive to produce, and likely have a limited number of buyers in the end. Not only that, but if it is billed as being an ARP 2500 clone, “the experts” are likely to b*itch and moan about every little thing on it that isn’t just like the 2500! They’d pick it apart to the point where some people might put off buying one.

I guess it would be conceivable to design the boards using as many SMDs as possible, and maybe get someone to tool up for a moderate number of first run units at a cost that isn’t too prohibitive. (I seem to recall reading that only 100 units were ever produced by ARP…) However, it would be a fairly tremendous outlay of capital, with the likelihood of low, no, or even negative ROI on the first run, and the even greater risk of it’s being orphaned as a result. But that would also depend upon the price point you’d be shooting for, and how many compromises you’d be willing to make in order to reach it and still be able to produce an “uncompromising” product. Since it would probably be perceived by most people as being in direct competition with the Voyager, you might not be able to price it much more than a Voyager Select if you’re hoping to sell to people outside of our little niche!

But I could be wrong. I personally love the idea! I like the idea about an open source design that would facilitate the addition of modules, either manufactured and sold, or home brewed. You might even provide a matching expansion cabinet for that purpose. The high resolution ADCs and DACs, and high resolution encoders for the pots are also a good idea. If I didn’t know my Voyager had these, I would swear they were analog! In fact, all of your design upgrades would be excellent. Those of us who wish we could get our hands on a 2500 would line up at the door, money in hand, eagerly jumping up and down like kids on Christmas eve!

It would be so cool! :slight_smile:

Bob

We’d see a suped-up Odyssey remake before a Arp approved 2500 remake, methinks.

If Moog can make a Moog guitar and still charge 5000 euros for it, taking into account the economic turmoil, then it seems to me that:

  1. They can make a poly synth.
  2. They can charge accordingly.
  3. Some people will buy it.

I think the 2500 could be possible with the ingenuity of people on the internet and an expiration of the patents that led to the ARP2500 in the first place.

People could build that if they had the rights.

It would be neat. ONLY 16 million possibillities. Kevin, you need to think a little bigger.

Eric

I think that Kevin and MC need to get together and start designing something…

How about an expandable ARP 2600? That could satisfy both sides of the genre and be far more affordable.

Not me- Phil Cirocco is the ARP go-to guy.

FWIW, Phil tried to clone an ARP 2500 module.

It was very difficult. Phil is not about to try another one of those.

Keep in mind this is the same guy who restored a Hammond Novachord which is basically a polymoog from the 1940s.

Kevin I think a programmable 2500 would be out of most people’s budgets.

I think something along the line of a Chroma clone would be more marketable. Read the rhodeschroma website about how the Chroma auto-tunes itself, as well as how they implemented polyAT and the configurable analog voices.

Those ARP designers were BRILLIANT. Particularly the auto-tune system, which uses two DACs one for range and one for scale. Auto-tune gave you independent range and scale for each oscillator - no trimpots!!!

(A shame that Phil Dodds is no longer with us though)

I read that Novachord blog. Absolutely amazing and crazy at the same time…!

The Chroma autotune is fast, too! How long does it take for a MemoryMoog? It’s less than 10s for the Chroma; if anything fails the voice is killed and you can try again later.

I mentioned on another post that I thought any new Moog polysynth should have some sort of visual routing system on the front panel, either via a fully graphical display (touch display to patch modules directly? :stuck_out_tongue:) or by LED tracks which show various audio and CV routing. Imagine an LFO sending its waveform to a filter etc.. I guess this would kind-of be the modern (digital) equivalent to patch switches/matrices but in a more visual, intuitive way.

The beauty of a modular is that you can patch anything anywhere and you have a good, albeit often messy, visualisation of signal/CV flow. Preset/pre-wired synths are less intuitive but you can save your work. Some combination of both, with patching realised through hardware or displays, would be awesome.

That’s a very good idea, Kevin!

What would you do to make a “modern” 2600? I think the popularity of the 2600 would be an automatic marketing “plus” for a an updated 2600 to be reissued.

I think MacBeth’s efforts did pretty well as far the 2600 coning is concerned.

As for me, I have no intentions to build any such synths.
I simply don’t have the money.
But I also wasn’t dead-set on having it be an exact clone of the 2500.
Simply an instrument that used the same basic routing scheme along with modularity and the ability to store patches.
Having jacks to patch things to and from things would not be overlooked.
I think that’s very important.

As to costs, you’re all quite correct. It would cost a lot.
But even $20K+ Buchlas sell.There IS a market, it’s just not a very big one.
I simply like the idea of providing an open support network and info for others to build upon.
Right now, half the modular makers seem to be reinventing the wheel.

A new Ody would be a good example.
When CAT did basically their “Ody”, the final result wasn’t so much a synth that sounded like an Ody, but one that took the basic form and went from there.
So my idea pretty much starts with the basic concept of a 2500- a large, quickly patched buss oriented system.
But the consideration that all those buttons and a good bussing system wouldn’t cost some large money isn’t lost on me.
It’s simply a dream voiced out loud.

Thanks for all the comments and input.
I agree with most everything said.
I appreciate the time you guys spent considering the idea. :slight_smile:
Thanks again.

Kevin

I love this idea but I feel that the ARP 2600 would be a far wiser clone. The shear size of the 2500 is in itself enough to make it a very small product run for any company aiming to dip it’s toes in this market. Cost would be probably around about the 12,000 Euro mark for the full monty as that matrix won’t be so cheap to reproduce if the unit is made in the US, Japan or Europe. Of course there will be a load of media interest if the clone is an exact replica improvements not withstanding. I don’t believe that there is currently a good 2600 clone out there. With the greatest respect Kevin, Macbeths clone was considered to be no where near a 2600 in sound or design merely in looks. If fact most people saw it as having a more of a Moog sound. If Macbeth was truely aiming at a 2600 clone, it’s cost and size was odd considering that the original´s main appeal was it’s portability as well as relative pricing. Macbeth’s look alike did not include the keyboard which is also so much a part of the 2500 package. As for patents I am aware that in about 2004 the Arp 2500 schematics were made available by MusicParts in America. So in theory there is no reason why one should not be able to build a working clone. This web link might prove useful to those who are really keen. http://www.emulatorarchive.com/ARP_2500_/arp_2500_.html
All that said it is a great idea and yes it wold be fantastic to have either the 2500 or the 2600 built as new once again. Wishing people luck with this one.

How about if a company were to start producing discreet modules that are clones of the 2500 circuits? It could be done using the MOTM model of buying and building one module at a time. And if it didn’t take off, at least we’d have access to some of the 2500…

Musicparts owned the rights to Arp designs?
New one on me, but I can’t say one way or another.

What I do know is that MDS (Music Dealer Service, Chicago, Ill) bought out much of the stuff from Arps “garage sale” and then they too went out business shortly after.

MacBeth may not have tried copying the 2600 exactly. That’s true.
But there are reasons why copying that synth exactly would be problematic.
Same for the 2500 or Ody.
So my idea also wasn’t to copy the 2500.
Simply the concept of their bussing.
I don’t know if it is financially or technically possible to copy ANY of the more famous vintage synths exactly.
There was a huge amount of labor needed to just wire up a 2600 internally.
That labor back then cost far less than today.
Manual time was spent matching parts, hand-soldering, calibration and other things difficult to do today by machine.
If someone was to build a reasonable costing synth like that, it would probably have to be done via surface mount components.
That’s why when Tom Oberheim redid the SEM, the only way to do it at a reasonable cost was surface mount and even then, they raised the price immediately afterward.

Unfortunately, people are somewhat spoiled today.
They make more money now, yet whine that an Ody goes for over a $1000 US, but back in the 70’s, they cost well over $1000.
So, who is ready to buy a new duped Ody for $3000? Not many.

Anyways, I wasn’t as concerned with price because it was the idea itself I was focused on. I have no plans or financial ability to build such a synth, so costs were not a consideration.

Kevin, do you know if the ARPs were as labor intensive as the Yamaha CS 50/60/80 series were? I’ve heard that the Yamahas are a nightmare to work on because of all the wiring.

Good question.
There’s probably more wiring in a CS80 than a 2500.
But they’re totally different synths.
The boards are higher quality in a 2500, come out easily for service and use mostly available or substitutable parts.

The CS80 has lots of custom Yamaha chips and many low quality adjustment trimmers.
One of the largest boards in a CS80 has some custom chips and is directly located beneath the keyboard too.
Drop a paper clip between the keys of an 80 and it won’t be a good thing.

I have a CS80 here for service now, btw.
It IS a real drag to work on, especially for what I’m doing (full recapping, all new trimmers, etc.)
I have to basically crawl onto the machine or lean over it.
I can’t move the thing at all.
Total nightmare because all the boards are soldered directly to their wires. No connectors.
In many ways, it’s built like an organ.

I’d much rather work on a 2500.
The last one here had only one actual component problem.
A single diode in a filter module.
About 5 cents and 5 minutes of time and it was fixed.
The rest was restoration efforts.
I find 2500s much easier to service than 2600s too.

Arp 2500s are also easier to clean up than CS80s.
At least using my methods… :wink:

Yep! I don’t think I’d let you do that to any of my synths. :wink:

Just for gits and shiggles, how much would you charge to recap and replace the trimmers on my CS50? A ballpark figure will do… I’m just curious.

Thanks!

I’d let Kevin give my modular a bath before I’d trust it to a typical repair shop. :wink:

Kevin!

this is an awesome pic! :laughing: Do you use shampoo + Conditioner? :laughing:

Can’t stop laughing, would never thought that I’d see the panel of an ARP 2500 taking a bath.