MF-109M - yet another VCA/EnvGen mockup

The Moog Forum Moogerfooger Forum
21

I know that the maximum of jacks at the back panel is 9, but maybe we just have to be brave and believe in the 10… The best way to reduce jacks in my opinion is to make the audio inputs and outputs stereo. So you could fit in
Envelope out
Gate out
Gate/trig in
Gate length in
Feedback in
VCA level in
Pan in

As long as the two envelopes share everything except the amount, I don`t think it is necessary to have two envelope outs. A cp-251 can get you there easily, and I guess that almost everybody with such an MF-109 would be the owner of a cp-251.

Even if I personally don`t care for animation, I came up with one last ridiculous layout that can be everything to everybody (an egg-laying wool-milk-pig, as we say in Switzerland):

This concept is called the radiator grill for obvious reasons, so you only have one knob.
But this way you get a dedicated animation section and have no dual duties for knobs or sliders. The top row features one new idea: Make the loop control not a switch but a real fader. In the bottom position, there would be one envelope. A bit upwards there would be two or three envelopes (the second and third fading in amplitude) and so on, until in the top position the envelope would be infinitely looping. Interesting pseudo-delays to be had…
Sad thing about this design is the lack of knobs. But even with tinier knobs you could not have 24 tweakable parameters at once…

I would go with Bryans first version with the green rocker switch - plus amount slider, plus pan slider and a loop knob instead of the switch.

Cheers, radioland

22

Hahahahah! I added the “Extra OOOOOMPH” footswitch on the bottom for my own amusement.

23

:laughing: :laughing:

I think you just topped the April fools joke they had planned - what ever it is!!

I’m working on a block diagram, and can see how quickly this can get out of hand… I will post soon, maybe Monday by the time I’m done.

What I get hung up on is the “Moog” aspect of these things. The MuRF has so much tweaking, the ring mod has many options too, but both are in a manageable package. I’m close to a solid idea for a dual ADSR (ASDR?) stereo panner OR a single HAHDSR stereo panner with Moog twists. This is something that I had an idea for a while back but never committed beyond a napkin sketch - Thanks for the inspiration to go further with it!!

24

I love all the ideas put forward so far!

In my mind, I don’t see this as a guitar stomp box pedal as much as I see it as a Control Module. Putting it in a similar box as the CP-251 gives you a much greater freedom in terms of real estate. The CP has 9 knobs and 24 jacks. Since it functions much more like the CP-251 or the VX-351, it should be set up like them… more like a modular design that Moog is almost… quite… nearly giving us already. It could be called the CM-151 or CM-451 (to keep the X51 name going).

Now start letting your ideas flow with this new real estate and let’s see what happens! There’s room for another 4-way mult. Plenty of jack space for stereo ins and outs. Room for a radiator grill plus plenty of knobs and jacks.

Stephen




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25

It is great to see more replies and ideas in this thread! Keep the ideas coming.

I like the CP-Style idea, so I might have to whip something up for that. It seems the CP-251 is so lonely that it needs a friend. I could see a trigger/gate sequencer and logic utillity in CP format as well.

I think we should start a presale campaign to get Moog to make the envelope/gate pedal. It seemed to work for them before.

26

In my mind, I don’t see this as a guitar stomp box pedal as much as I see it as a Control Module.

I would love to have this Gate/Env/VCA-tool in a cp-251 format, too. But somehow, Moog Music doesnt share this idea. The request for such a device started to come up around 2005 and has been expressed regularly ever since. There have been some great looking and tempting concepts, but none of them came into being. Thats why I came up with the somehow new idea of putting the long awaited VCA/EnvGen in a Moogerfooger stompbox format, so it wouldnt only be useful for synthesists. Whats more, the three cp-style boxes that already exist are all control voltage processors and are not intended to handle audio. I think Moog will/should stick to that concept. And as no Moogerfooger has a CV input for volume or gate, you need a box with audio ins and outs…

I like the CP-Style idea, so I might have to whip something up for that. It seems the CP-251 is so lonely that it needs a friend. I could see a trigger/gate sequencer and logic utillity in CP format as well.

I think that a cp-sized new unit could accompany the “Env/Gate” and all other Moogerfoogers really well (and has as well been requested for a long time). So why not extend the topic and start a sequencer-cp drawing contest :sunglasses: …

I think we should start a presale campaign to get Moog to make the envelope/gate pedal. It seemed to work for them before.

Being the Swiss greenhorn that I am, what is a presale campaign? :unamused:

Anyway, everything that keeps this thread and the crusade for an Gate/Env/VCA Moog tool alive is welcome!

Cheers, radioland

27

I thought I would give the CP style a try, so here is a first attempt at an AP-250 Amplitude Processor. It has 2 envelopes with independent gate inputs, independant trigger pattern banks, one-shot/loop controls and inverted outs. You can use each section independently or maybe it could be normalled to work all together like the sample and hold section of the CP-251 (or the EG/VCA pedal designs earlier in this thread. It would have been nice to have amount controls on the envelope outs, but that can be done with simple or inverting attenuators.

28

Tasty! I like the modular-ness of this design and how you can get more ins and outs to the panel.

Today I worked a bit on the sequencer-companion to the Env/Gate pedal. Here is my first idea:

On the right side at the bottom you have two 8-step modules. In my mind they have two fixed positions at the bottom: One to have that stage skipped and one to have it off (a pause). From there upwards you can set the levels freely.

On the left side there are two identical control sections:

-Rate: Two individual LFOs to determine how quickly the sequences run
-Gate length: Two individual controls to determine how long the voltage level is held
-Direction: 3-way chicken head to determine wether the sequence runs upwards, downwards or randomly

-Gate out: Think of the Env/Gate Fooger and all synths with a gate in…
-1V out: Spreads the set levels in the sequence section over +/-1V (or 0-1V)
-5V out: Spreads the set levels in the sequence section over +/-5V (or 0-5V)
-Trig in: With this input you can trigger each new step individually
-Rate in: So you can create rhythmic variations via CV

On the top (the knobs should all have the same size :blush: ) you have three global controls (two chicken heads and one rocker switch):

-Reset/On/Off: Here you can start your sequence, stop it and later go on, or reset to the beginning
-Parallel/Series/Long run: On the left side the two sequences run individually, in the middle position the two sequences are played after each other and on the left side the two form one long sequence (only the knobs and inputs of section 1 are active, but you could use the outs of both sections).
-+/-5V or 0-5V: Depending on the inputs of your synths/gear you choose the matching output voltage range

I know that this box doesnt have half of the possibilities of, say, a doepfer dark time. But that one has the CV connections on the back side, has smaller jacks and you need to have really small fingers :wink: ... But you could "midify" this box, give it a nice editor and start playing with things like clock divisions, quantification and more... But somehow Id like to have a potential sg-751 to look and feel simple and analog :sunglasses: .

I`m not quite sure about the proportions of this design, as I compared to the cp-251 only by eye…

What do you think of this companion?

Cheers, radioland

29

I like the idea of the CP sized enclosure, however I do think if we are intending to produce an “effect” it should remain in the moogerfooger format. If we are making a control module that does not have bypass switches then CP is a natural choice.

I’m still racking my brain regarding the idea I had - it’s complex yet simple in result. More to come soon.

30

Congratulations on your SON! Mine is 8mos today. Our first.

Nice to have a little moogerfooger in the house!

Eric


I’ve posted this enough times:

This is supposed to have been a 4 channel audio mixer/VCA, envgens, dual trigger delay/VCA combo with an envelope follower on it for good measure
The switch would disconnect the first envgen from it, so everything would be separate, but otherwise it would be normalized to be controlled by the first envgen.
The Dual Trigger delay, envelopes, and envelope follower are all based off of the original Moog modules. The middle knob on the envelope follower section was based off the Moog Archives photo, but that wasn’t a stock unit so if that knob was removed that would be perfect for the logo and model number.

I submitted it years ago to Moog but perhaps for legal reasons they can’t build user submissions? I think Amos said it would be very costly to implement also.

But they already have an envelope follower circuit and they already have a 4 channel mixer.


I chose this in CP format because it wouldn’t be particularly necessary to have this in a stompbox format, and with the CP, VX351 and 2, there is a hole if you rack them up.

This would complete the Fooger Synth.


I still wish they would build it but I had to go ahead and get a dotcom modular for the envelopes and VCA. I’d still get it if they built it. I don’t know how well received this product would be though.

31

…and mine just turned 1 year old yesterday…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y5-OHpL08s

Stephen

32

Thanks man! Yes, to have children is such a blessing, and our two girls (two and soon four years old) love their little brother a lot. I hope that I can share my love for music and experimentation with all of them.

Good to meet fellow young fathers here (to prove that people around synthesizers don`t have to be quirky nerds buried in heaps of strange gear :sunglasses: )!

To be honest I dont understand every part of your CP-255, Eric. Could you elaborate on that a little bit? Am I right that all jacks labeled "in" or "out" are for audio signals? The dual trigger delay is for the "D" stage before the ADSR, right? I also dont understand the module on the far right side, and where your gate in or out would go. But as far as I understand it it would really give the whole idea a modular touch.

As far as Im concerned I wouldnt have any problems with Moog “using” my humble sketches - just send me a bunch of the first ones off the production line and maybe a Voyager RME and I will be happy and satisfied :laughing: …

Here`s my last go on the pedal version of a gate/env/vca Fooger:

I think it makes more sense to put the feedback knob in the center column together with the drive knob, and put the gate/env loop knob in the vca section.
The big problem still ist that you have not enough jacks for all the desirable CV inputs and outputs. So maybe it should have TRS audio inputs and outputs. Which CV ins can be left out the easiest, without loosing too much? Maybe amount and sensitivity.

Im really curious about your idea! By the way, whats a good book or website for starters to learn about electric circuits with all their components and signal flows?

How do you imagine a cp-sized sequencer?

Cheers, radioland

33

I hereby state in the public record that I am willing to sign any document that gives Moog the rights to produce any ideas I repeatedly ask them to make (including envelopes). Any Photoshopped image I post here remains under their ownership if it contains the Moog and MoogerFooger logos as far as I am concerned. I will take them down or provide better artwork at their request as well.

34

Super Cool advancement on this idea. I really like it, and I’m with you on the vertical layout and GREEN Rocker!! YES!!

The form factor is really not as big as it seems… The pots and I/O jacks take up quite a bit of room. So agreed, I think doing stereo would really be pushing the space constraints. You’d have to give up some functionality most likely to make room for more signal… The fact that no other moogers (that I’m aware of) are stereo, it just doesn’t really fit.

I think one of the reasons that people are interested in the CP-251 form factor is that if you’re using the rackmount brackets, you probably have a vacancy next to the CP-251, and in the case of my moogertron, I have six moogers 3 and 3, and with the CP row, the wooden “rack” that I have it in is already over 3 feet high (I left room between rows to make it easy to plug/unplug)..

There are enough moogers now, that I suppose I’m headed for another row even though it’s already too big. But I can’t really see getting rid of any of them, and have been wanting both the new MIDI-delay and the Cluster Flux - so with the MF-109 I’d have a cool 9 moogers!

Foogertron 10,000!! :smiling_imp: (you know, 1,000 per moogerfooger…have to count the CP too…)

35

OK, yeah, so I was looking at the crowded I/O on the mooger format, and I just don’t think you could fit that many jacks there. They are larger than the inside than the plastic nut from the outside…

I think TRS is the way to go to minimize.

Don’t our moogers already have protection built in for CV being plugged into signal? I could swear I’ve done it on accident in our dimly lit rehearsal studio… And had no troubles. Just sayin, I don’t think it would really damage anything. Willing to be proven wrong, as long as, it’s not by damaging anything… :blush:

I do really like the fitment of the CP style “109” though - it would fit awesome into my setup, and it would give you all the room you need for the extra I/O.

I guess the sell is, does it really belong there or not? I think there is a sort of convincing argument that the “109” would not really be a staple unit for a guitar player.

Not to trod off topic, but really, how many of us that have more than 1 or 2 Moogers use them on the floor? Not me.

I’m a bass player by trade, and occasionally I play my bass thru Foogertron but rarely. All that modulation doesn’t really do much with a non-sustaining signal.

Plus, you’re using a device that requires constant tweaking. I’m not old, but I’m not young either - bending over with a 10lb bass hung around your neck sucks if you have to do it much.

I have my foogertron sort of set up like an “easel” - where I can reach the controls without bending over.

Cool ideas though, keep it going.

CM

36

16 Moogerfoogers here (+ 2 MP-201’s), no way am I putting them on the floor… It’s my mini modular.

Stephen




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37

I have 10 Moogerfoogers right now and I always keep them on a table. I thought about the jack orientation problem for a while and came up with this idea:

Keep the three IKEA Rast bedside tables at a convenient hight and you have a bunch of Foogers that have their jacks in the same orientation as the CP-sized units. Like this you can use a 109 pedal quite comfortably.

I still feel somehow that if a Envgen/Gate/VCA-Fooger is to be realized one day, it has to be in a form that will attract more than “just” us semi-modular freaks…

Cheers, radioland

38

Radioland,
That’s a tiny computer! Must be one of those old tablets?
Regarding the “CP-255” (to which I would also gladly relinquish any rights to (provided they let me beta-test).
The first module is a VCA with a four channel audio mixer as an interface.
The CV input is for modulating the VCA such as for the creation of tremolo.
The switch, just as it works on the Voyager, disconnects the first envelope generator from the VCA.
The four inputs are audio inputs.
The two outputs are audio outs. The bottom output jack was just inserted there for aesthetic purposes, but a second audio output could be useful.

The envelope generators, are Attack Decay Sustain and Release, totally independent, except the first is hardwired to the VCA.

The third is a dual trigger delay based off the Moog 911a module. Independent of the envelope generators, but commonly used in conjunction with 2 envelope generators on the big system 55’s (hence the name CP-255).

The last module is an envelope follower based on the Moog 912. The signal (audio) input on the left, probably exits at the control output on it’s right. Below the signal input is the control input which I can only assume since the line is drawn exits at the control output. It is essentially the 912, however that module works haha. I included this because Moog already has the envelope follower circuits in two foogers, so this would put panel graphics to it, and would be sort of a instrument interface similar to what the dotcom module is.

Stephen,
CongratulationsI great video.

I shot this a few days ago..“Baby Beat Poet.”

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=684688128255219

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Haha, no, I was just too lazy to start all over when I realized that my trusty 2009 Macbook Pro got way too small :laughing: . I added it at the end to show how I could use the free space on top of the left rack.

My idea is to place them at a convenient angle and put the power supplies inside the boxes (I already have a Cioks DC10 and I`m really happy with it).

OK, now I got (most of) it, thank you!
Id love to have a mini-modular like this where you can use the different sections independently or "traditionally". To combine mixer and VCA is really elegant. Do you know how the dual trigger delay works, i.e. how the processed CV is "stored"? Yeah, the envelope follower looks a bit confusing. What does the bottom knob do for example? On such a box it would be essential to color code audio and CV jacks (are the envelope and delay jacks audio or CV jacks?). How would this box handle gates? \ \ Now that there are already so many viewers and writers in this thread, and so many improvements and suggestions have been made, Id really love to know what the good people in Asheville think about it all… :question:

Cheers, radioland

40

Seems like many here would love to have the Gate/Env/VCA thing in cp-style… I tried to fit my 109-ideas into the cp-format, and here`s what it looks like:

Red nuts are for audio, green ones can power an expression pedal. The lights in the audio in section work like the drive lights on the moogerfoogers, and the sensitivity LED lights up when a signal triggers a gate.

You have to get used to the slider section orientation, and the jack arrangement is not as elegant as on the cp-251 or on Bryans design, but you can fit in all of the inputs and outputs that I originally suggested, like the stage length control knob and jack.
It still isn`t a pure control unit, though, and it currently lacks some sort of bypass option.

Thatt the critical question! And thats why I originally started this thread.

I think that the Freqbox and the MurF are great examples for unlikely success (one has been asked for for quite some time, the other one came out of the blue): Who thought that an oscillator “effect” would sell? Well, one that can hard sync and has controls for envelope to frequency and FM is interesting for guitar and synthesizer players. Who thought that a fixed filter bank would sell? Well, one with animation and different envelope shapes does…

We/Moog will have to find a design and configuration that will appeal to guitar players as well as synthesists. And maybe a gate/envelope/vca-pedal or box with the features that have been suggested in this thread will achieve that…

Any thoughts on the sequencer box idea from the last page, by the way?

Cheers, radioland