MF-109M - yet another VCA/EnvGen mockup

The Moog Forum Moogerfooger Forum
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Hey fellow Moogers

Last night when I was awake with my 10 days old son (trying to to give my wonderful wife the opportunity to sleep a bit longer) I kept myself awake thinking about the long “lost” VCA/EnvGen-Moogerfooger :smiley: . I hastily scribbled down my ideas and today I drew two little mockup faceplate plans.

I know that there have been many and better looking designs in the past years, and I have no real knowledge in electronics. But I love my herd of Moogerfoogers and like many of you I would love to have that sort of companion to them, so here are my thoughts…

Many concepts based on the cp-251 format, but I think the “MF-109M” should look like the other Foogers. Why? Moogerfoogers are aimed at guitarists, so this VCA/EnvGen-Fooger should address them as well as the synth nerds. Moogerfoogers already cover many common effects, and we have a pedal for guitarists that is a special VCF (the MuRF), a Pedal for guitarists that is a special VCO (the Freqbox), but the special VCA is missing. Some of the Minifoogers have big brothers (like Ringmod and Delay), but there is no big brother to the MF boost (VCA) or the MF trem (yes, I know about the 102). Thats where my idea comes in:

I`ll now explain my two mockups and their ins and outs.

EG: Take the MuRF sliders and give it the additional Delay and Hold stages that the Sub 37 has.

Gate sensitivity: Incoming signals trigger a gate, which triggers the EG. The gate sensitivity knob determines how loud a signal must be to trigger the gate. Fully clockwise, the gate/VCA is ON.

Gate length: This knob determines the length of the internally generated gate. When the Env./Gate Loop switch is ON, this knob determines the speed of the cycling.

Drive: Same as in other Moogerfoogers

Env./Gate Loop: This switch can make the gate and thus the EG looping. The Gate Tap Tempo foot switch, like the gate length knob, can determine the speed of the cycling.

Feedback: This is the “extra” knob in my design and is aimed at guitarists. Imagine how you can have your tones “standing” and modulate the amplitude to mimic for example an Ebow.

Output: Like on the other Moogerfoogers.

→ I know that only the output knob technically belongs to the VCA, that`s why I drew two possible designs…

Lights: The drive and bypass lights work like on the other Moogerfoogers. The gate LED lights up when a gate is open. It could be green with the internal gate, red when it is looping and tap tempo controlled, and orange with an external gate.

Connections:

  • Audio Input
  • Audio Output

-Gate/Trig in: To trig the EG with an external CV or Audio (say a drumbeat)
-Gate length in: Doubles the corresponding knob
-Gate sensitivity in: Doubles the corresponding knob
-Stage length in: Controls the delay, attack, hold, decay and release times, so you can shorten or widen the Envelope as a whole
-VCA level in: To make the VCA truly voltage controllable
-Feedback in: Think of the guitarists…

-Envelope out: Only one output - but who doesn`t at least have a cp-251 :smiley:
-Gate out: To give it even more modular flair

-Midi in: To rival the MP-201…

So what does this MF-109M give you:

-EnvGen & VCA for your Moogertron
-looping envelopes
-two tap tempo LFO outs (when Loop is ON), one of them multi-stage & multi-waveform
-complex tremolos
-automated or foot controlled volume swells
-gate effects like backwards reverb or staccato
-Ebow-style sounds
-Feedbacked sounds for all with no model D or Sub 37

Now, I don`t know how possible my ideas are, or how expensive such an MF-109M would be, or if this would make many Moogers happy. So tell me what you think of it.

Cheers, radioland

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u-oh, I can`t attach the files. It says “Sorry, the board attachment quota has been reached.” Can somebody help me? :unamused:

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Edited out how to post pictures information
Glad you got to post your pics!

I think Moog should have an envelope generator and some sequencer type elements (trigger and voltage sequencers). The Dual Universal Slope Generator from Serge would be the perfect type of pedal for Moog to release (obviously they would add their own ideas to the mix not just copy that). I think the Lag is a bit archaic for proper envelope duties and a typical Modular would use at least 2 envelopes and include looping as an option (good thing they have that feature already developed on the sub37!). Another thing I think they could pull off is a frequency shifter and also a parametric EQ with voltage controlled sweep abillity! The MoogerFooger line-up could be unstoppable with these additions.

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Thanks a lot Bryan! Just before I read your post I figured it out myself (with a little help from ask-leo :blush: ). The solution was of course to create an account on flickr… But hey, I was born in the 80s, so I don`t have the internet in my DNA :sunglasses: .

cheers, radioland

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I would love to see a Stereo (In & Out) Fooger offering AHDSR, multi-waveshaped
Tremolo with the option of Auto Panning, and Stereo Rhythmic Gating (Amplitude
version of MuRF), with the Rate controlled via Knob, Tap Tempo, MIDI CC, Gate Input,
and MIDI Clock (with the 22 Time divisions).

Envelope sensitivity for Rate Control is also very musical. As is amplitude-based
switching (with Glide) between two set Rates.

There are several products out there that each have some of the puzzle pieces,
but none have all of them:

Catalinbread Stereo Semaphore (discontinued for a mono version ;-(
http://medias.audiofanzine.com/images/normal/catalinbread-stereo-semaphore-tremolo-266068.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQEVEMxEsqA
(Wonderful choice of waves, and Shape adds so many more. But only Mono In, no MIDI.)

Gig-fx Pro Chop
http://www.gig-fx.com/products/pro-chop/
(Lots of musically useful features with MIDI, but only Mono In.)

Pigtronix Philosopher King
http://www.pigtronix.com/products/philosopher-king/
(Clever use of Repeating Envelope to make LFO Shapes, but no MIDI, Mono In/Out.)

HardWire TR-7 Tremolo
http://www.hardwirepedals.com/tr7-tremo … erview.php
(Stereo In/Out, finally, and Tap Tempo, but no MIDI, and limited Waveshapes.)

Not only would this Fooger do all your standard stereo ADSR and Tremolo tricks,
but each Output could be used feed a different effect chain thus giving you
dynamic, rhythmic, or manual control over the blend of two effect chains.

An LFO Out would make it even more fun to connect with other Foogers, and
L/R CV Ins for Amplitude would allow it to become 2 VCAs of your Fooger Synth.

I know that I harp on the Stereo In/Out thing a lot, but it’s disappointing to have
so many pedals that sound so good in Stereo (like 103, 105, 108) and then be put
in a situation where I have to make everything Mono except for the very last pedal.
Stop making me choose :slight_smile:

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I wanted to see what your sketches might look like, so I mocked them up for you. Not perfect, but here they are:

Then I thought they would be more performable with the rocker switches, so here those are too:

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That looks really nice, would be even better with dual envelopes.

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the MuRF has 8 sliders, so you could have a dual ADSR and not change much on this design.

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Wow, Bryan, youre the man! Of course I dont mind you converting my lousy scribbling to convincing images. Thank you!
The idea of dropping the delay and hold stages and so be able to squeeze two ADSR envelopes into the same space sounds tempting. But then, only one could be used for the sound at the audio input, the other would only be accessible via CV out, unless you had multiple audio inputs and outputs on the MF-109M. Would that be convenient? And then you would have to skip up to three CV ins or outs of the maximum of 10 to make room for additional audio ins and outs and CV outs.

By the way, which of the two designs do you like better or do you think will provide an easier workflow? I prefer the first one with the drive knob in the center column as usual. And of course the loop switch has to be a rocker switch - I`d love to see a green one on a Moogerfooger one day.

Dan, I hear you… I have read through the many pages of CP-style mockups and requests for the missing Env/VCA Fooger. In my opinion, some ideas tried to squeeze in too many different things, others were too much of a niche product or too far away from the whole Moogerfooger concept. How would a Moogerfooger with two ADSRs, 8-step amplitude modulation array and controls for gating and LFO look like? I think that Moogerfoogers are what they are because of the endless possibilities they give you - and because of the limitations they have.

Thanks for joining the discussion, I will be pleased to read more thoughts and comments!

Cheers, radioland

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Here is the latest revision with green rockers and a few minor tweeks to finish it up:

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Keep the 8 sliders and the last can be a bipolar level/amount control for the internal VCA. So the EG can be positive or negative.
Edit, okay that would make 7 all up…

I’m not so sure about the gate length control; wouldn’t this be done with the Hold slider? Or am I missing something?

I like the design, although I’m off to modular land these days :slight_smile:

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I’m sold. When / where / how / do I pay?

Instead of the length control, as it is slightly redundant (however pretty neat, maybe a CV or MIDI controlled item?) something else could be added. The one thing that is missing is some kind of pattern creation tool. The chopper, boss slicer, and a number of tremolos (empress) offer some kind of pattern manipulation. Many are presets, what if this had something variable that was one knob friendly with MIDI options inside to extend ability. Like a variable waveshape LFO or something that can be used to sync the trigger to. Or a MuRF engine that triggers based on a programmed pattern that we could of course manipulate.

The stereo aspect of this MUST be implemented… this would be a very useful sound design tool, and find lots of uses on pedal boards. The “pattern” could be applied to the stereo channels for panning & potentially phase manipulation etc. (Call this control “Offset” or “Axis”). One of my favourite things about MOOG gear is the re-amping ability and the pure analog tone that results. It makes digital recordings that lacked depth come alive, and this would be an awesome unit to do this with.

By the way - the marketing ploy for MOOG on this one is: The pedal that our customers designed. The first in the world…

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I like a lot of the ideas I heard so far:
Make it stereo
Pan option
Bipolar amount slider (maybe make it left and right bipolar amounts to make it 8 sliders)
The MuRF style trigger pattern select knob

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It could also be programmed as a 8-step linear sequencer where each slider sets the VCA level.

They definitely keep an eye out here, several ideas like the Cluster Flux and MIDI MuRF were voiced on this forum!

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So what do we call it?

Stereo Envelope?

Envelereo :smiling_imp:

Since you bring those up - I’m thinking the audio path should rest somewhere between MuRF & ClusterFlux. Similar voicing, with similar stereo options.

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Panvelope?

Here is a version with some of the suggestions included and a back panel for discussion purposes. The Dual envelope outs are Insert style TRS outputs (to cram both outputs into the back panel). I didn’t label the inputs as audio, since I am hoping we could use them for any AC or DC signal. I dropped the sensitivity knob since the Drive could do the same thing I think. The Pan Knob would only pan using the first input and disable the second input when it isn’t in the off position (weird I know). Length is cool as it could act as a frequency input when looping (creating a potential VCO?).

I think there could be special modes activated by MIDI that could turn it into a voltage sequencer (sliders could go up for output 1 and down for output 2), amplitude sequencer or even have the sliders turn a trigger on or off so you could program your own 8-step gate patterns!

One of the patterns should be off and another should be random triggers (different on both outputs). Maybe you could select more memory banks over midi (like being able to do both sets of MuRF patterns).

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That`s a great discussion going on here, thanks for all the input! Based on all the suggestions and requests I came up with two new layouts, one being really close to your last one, Bryan.

Here I added two more sliders, one for envelope amount (fully positive to fully negative) and one for panning. If the loop switch is OFF, you can statically pan your signal. If the loop switch is ON, the position of the slider determines wether the panning starts left or right and how wide spread the panning is.

I guess it makes sense that the drive knob could manage the sensitivity duties. So I left the sensitivity knob out and put a MuRF pattern knob in. Nevertheless I still love the possibility to “filter out” sounds via the sensitivity knob, so maybe you could still squeeze the drive knob in above the loop switch and keep the sensitivity switch where it “originally” was.

On the back panel I would put the following ins and outs:

-Audio in 1
-Audio in 2 (inputs could be used separately, so you could process two sounds with the same envelope)
-Audio out 1
-Audio out 2 (if only one input is used, you can still get a stereo output)

-Envelope out (the envelope would work for both channels)
-Gate out (it would be a shame to leave that one out)

-Gate length in
-Feedback in
-VCA level in
-Gate/Trig in

I guess you have to first put inputs for all the knobs in here before you can add more goodies. At least that`s the philosophy on all the other Moogerfoogers.

Here I went down the “dual envelope” route. In the top right section (I know there is a naming confusion) you could individually choose the amount of the two envelopes, from fully negative to fully positive. I left out the pattern and feedback knobs and put in a pan knob instead. Imagine what you can conjure up when you pan between two separate channels (possibly with different sounds) with separate envelopes…

As for the ins and outs:

-Audio in 1
-Audio in 2 (inputs could be used separately, so you could process two sounds with the same envelope)
-Audio out 1
-Audio out 2 (if only one input is used, you can still get a stereo output)

-Envelope 1 out
-Envelope 2 out
-Gate out

-Gate length in
-VCA level in
-Gate/Trig in or pan in

The problem in all this is how to put all the things we wish for in one Moogerfooger. I like the first version better and think it would be more user friendly. If you want to have more than one Moog oscillator, you buy multiple Freqboxes, so for more than one envelope you buy multiple 109s…

I don`t know if gate length and the hold stage are the same. I know that the attack starts with the opening of the gate, and that the release starts with the closing of the gate. Is the hold stage not only one of the stages between attack and release that can be omitted if the gate is too short?

Maybe we all will be surprised this year by Moog - they have the “torrero” thing up their sleeve, and maybe it turns out to be a “MF-109M torrereo” of some sorts :wink:

Cheers (and sorry for my inability to use photoshop…), radioland

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One more thing for the first idea: You could put another rocker switch in the center column that would toggle between two different uses of the slider section. One side would activate the envelope section as it is labeled. The other side would turn the 8 sliders into MuRF-style amplitude steps. This would somehow break the Moogerfooger rule of “one function per knob”, but on the other hand you would thus have control over all the parameters on the panel.
Maybe you would then have to take the next step and give the faders little motors who put them in the correct position when you toggle the switch, because if you don`t your settings can get confused.

Cheers, radioland

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I was looking at the descriptions radioland gave of the back jacks and it seems like 10 jacks (not including MIDI) would be too many according to the previously released Moogers which currently have a 9 jack max. We could possibly visually argue to include 10 jacks for this one. If it were up to me there would be a giant jack field on the back for every possible input and output (but I am taming it back to try and be realistic with this).

I was wishing we could use a TRS plug for stereo in (or mono in with TS plug) but I talked myself out of that since somebody would plug a pedal into it (providing +7v voltage to the input) and probably fry something haha. They have used TRS inputs for the MuRF Tap/Step control and the feedback Insert loops on the Cluster (and the 104M Delay) so that is why I thought we could use it for the Envelope Outputs. I had both envelope outputs on the back because there was a polarity slider for each which meant you would have 2 totally different envelopes unless they were set exactly the same. I personally really like the variable polarity slider concept. Just think you could have one effect come in with one VCA and have another effect come in when that one is fading away. Such a cool way to combine fooger timbres!

I get now what you were saying about how the sensitivity knob would work, that is different than drive. Maybe a center detent knob would let you turn left of center to filter through what frequency triggers the gate and then turn right to give it more drive. That would still be CV controllable for fun results. Maybe it should be separate Drive (for audio input) and sensitivity (for gate creation)?

The Length knob probably should also be titled Rate for the looping mode. Length/Rate or Length/Frequency?

I forgot or left out some of the original ideas for the jacks in back:
trigger/gate in: I need to add those inputs. Maybe TRS jacks for both trigger inputs and both envelope outputs?
VCA CV input: This would need 2 controls again (only if it a a dual envelope).
The Gate out: Useful for extracting a gate from a signal (with frequency sensitivity it could be used to create varying outputs).

What if Panning and VCA were combined somehow? It would take 2 VCA’s to pan or 2 VCA’s for seperate channels. Maybe a mode switch between VCA and Pan as to allow auto/modulated panning or the normal envelope controlled VCA? I don’t think you would be using both modes at the same time and it could cut down on jacks on the back to say VCA/Pan control.

While I think the envelope/amplitude slider mode switch would look coolest as a rocker, I don’t think that needs to be playable so I would say it could be the smaller switch style. that might allow more panel room? The Drive, Output and Mix knobs are tiny on the ClusterFlux, maybe we could use that concept here as well to get more in.

No matter how it would end up, I think this fooger will fit in perfectly with all of the other foogers, which is the goal here. I would use it with any other fooger with much different results, which tells me these could sell in multiples!

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How about a TRS jack for a combined IN 1/2 that would be a Mono In when a TS cable is inserted.

A TRS Male to L+R TS Males (aka Inset Cable) or a short TRS Male to L+R TS Females cable would allow Stereo In.

Now we’re back to 9 jacks.