Submitted for your approval/discussion, another vco idea aimed more at still fitting into the realm of the other foogers in size, scope, and ability; I thought i’d try my crack at it..
-Envelope. I spent a while considering how to fit an ADSR into the fooger design without getting too weird or extravagant. Personally I’d be totally fine with just an AR env (sustain is 100%). The parameters are straight off the voyager.
Audio IN: hardwired to the osc freq mebbe? a guitar/bass/drum/voice synth would be fun.
GATE IN: Connecting this to a TRS cable would disconnect the osc from EG (or whatever keeps the osc in drone mode) until a gate trigger signal is received.
no VCA? I’m presuming this would be built into the drive feature, so that the AUDIO IN could be be used in conjunction, and then the mix knob could be used to wet/dry between OSC and whatever is being input.
i have to say that i can see few problems with it, like the use of 2 parameters with just one knob would really complicate things (everytime you went back to the other parameter the value would be reset to the current knob position)
also it goes against the basic idea of the moogerfoogers, to have knob per function, inputs/outputs for everything, basically just the early modular feel enclosed in a foot pedal.
maybe if you had inner and outer rings for the knobs like course/fine and that would free up the switches for pitch tracking functions and such.
Not neccesarily, the circuits could be independant, the knob could handle the assigned parameter. The Litty Phatty employs this same technology.
I’m all for more control! The premise here though was more to make a really realistic fooger version using existing model design (look at the mf-103). something in a CP-251 module shape could certainly house a more interesting version though, no doubt.
Either way, lets hope something comes of fooger vco’s. It’d blow the doors wide open.
Interesting concept. The variable range control of the oscillator make it useful for both audio and LFO applications (like oscillator 3 on the Voyager).
I gather that the Drive knob is pre-envelope distortion and the Mix knob is a kind of balance control between the direct oscillator out and the VCA out?
FWIW, I second Godzilla’s comment about the concentric controls to keep the 'Foogers one-knob, one-function paradigm. Another possibility, however, is to rearrange the panel controls and use smaller knobs for all functions. This would probably provide sufficient space for an ADSR implementation. An Envelope Output jack would also be very desirable.
Nice Photoshop chops!
Greg
BTW - Is the “ENVELOPE” jack on the back panel the trigger input for the EG?
looks very cool. i’m trying to imagine what this would sound like with guitar, i guess the oscillator would sound like a tremolo? what about an adsr. i didn’t think you could put an instrument through an adsr, i thought it only accepted a gate. let alone what they would both sound like together.
I think we’d all like to see something similar to the concepts presented here turned into a real product, but I wonder about the overall level of interest (and subsequent sales) that would make the product viable. In a lot of ways, such a product seems to make sense. A VCO/VCA/EG device would complete a very basic synthesizer when combined with the MF-101, and the device would be very desireable as an addition to the Voyager (extra oscillator/LFO & VCA/EG). It would also provide some nice CV expansion capabilities to the existing 'Fooger line. All good reasons, but would it appeal to enough people for Moog to make the investment to develop and produce it?
To answer my own question: I hope so - I’d buy several!
excuse my ignorance but can you explain the function a little bit. It plays notes? what do you use to control the pitch? or just in general what does it do?
CV would control pitch. You could use any other CV out from another MF or an expression pedal. The osc. would not likely be used with a guitar, although the oscillator could be used with cool results in the Ring Modulator as a carrier. I suppose the signal could be routed into other CV in, but that would be a pretty high freq. Those with Voyagers or other Mod systems would be the main users. But I’m not counting out some guitarists who could find other uses. I would love to see something like this made. The way this mock up is designed, you could also produce an LFO who’s pitch and wave form could be modulated via CV. That would be handy for a guitarist.
Voyager uses would live it for the extra oscillator. They would also love to have an extra envelope for modulation.
the basic idea is to make a pedal that uses the pitch of the input (guitar, voice) to control a VCO, which is then contoured by the VCA that has an envelope that is triggered by the input (you’d probably need a control for the sensitivity of this) you can then mix between the VCO sound and the original guitar/voice/etc sound to whatever you want.
that is how it would work as a guitar pedal but the concept is largely an excuse to make a moogerfooger that combine a VCO, VCA and an ENV so that you could use the moogerfoogers as a complete modular synth. but it would make a very useful pedal all the same
combining this kind of pedal with the MF101 would give you both a fairly basic but nevertheless complete analog modular monosynth, and a very controllable guitar synth with both pitch and volume tracking as well as VCO, VCF, VCA and ENV that can control each other.
they should definitely make something like this and i think they will, considereing how they have responded to previous product demand. When we all complained we wanted another analog delay they came through, and then we said we wanted a cheaper synth and they came through again, moog is the only company i can think of that:
if you want them to make something and say so on the forum there is a chance that it will actually be made
as far as moog’s next release it will either be something that we’ve been asking for
-the VCO idea
-sequencer
-drum machine
all of which would be great. or it will be something we haven’t thought of, which would also be really great (possibly a great deal better)
the way i see it we shouldn’t complain if they don’t make this thing right away because we’ve already been granted 2 of our wishes in quite a short time, and they (as a company) haven’t been going all that long and they already sell quite a lot of really cool things, way more than any other brands anyway
Perhaps MuRF sliders for ADSR? BTW, if it has envelope generation, would it also be called a Voltage Controlled Amplifier? (VCO + VCA). And don’t you usually put your VCO through a VCF before the VCA? More outputs? OR seperate pedals, one VCA, one VCO!!! And Moog said they wouldn’t do modular again…
I think it would work fine to filter after the VCA. I might be wrong, but I belive the Moog Sonic Six follows this unusual signal flow (OSC-VCA-VCF). Or, there could a direct out for the oscillator and an effects return to send the signal back into the VCA post MF101 filter.
I also think it would work better with dedicated knobs (as oppossed to multifunction knobs).
But I’d like to add my name to the list of people asking for this sort of Moogerfooger. I love using the modular capabilities of the Moogerfooger line (withought having to carry around a stack of cumbersome modules). Each MF is useful by itself, but a product like this would really pull the whole line together.
Also I don’t think there has ever been an extremely functional P/V effect, so it’s not like this MF would just be digging up old technology. It would be an extremely new and useful product incorporating technologies that may not have been available 20 years ago.
How do we make this suggestion known to Moog Music?
<< How do we make this suggestion known to Moog Music? >>
We just did - Moog monitors these forums.
BTW, I believe you are correct about the signal flow in the Sonic Six:
VCO → VCA → VCF
That arrangement seems unusual simply because we’re so used to the Minimoog module arrangement that has appeared in nearly every synth since the 1970’s:
VCO → VCF → VCA
<< BTW, if it has envelope generation, would it also be called a Voltage Controlled Amplifier? (VCO + VCA)>>
The VCA is the circuit that turms the audio signal on and off. It is usually has no controls of it’s own. It uses the output of an EG (often referred to as the Volume EG) to control the On/Off times, which we know as ADSR (Attack, Decay, Sustain, Release). The EG generates the time-varying control voltages which control the gain of the VCA. Because the VCA has no controls, users don’t often realize there’s actually a circuit there to control the audio.
Looking at CTRLSHFT’s mockup again, it may or may not have a built-in VCA circuit working with the EG (remember that the VCA is an ‘inviseable’ circuit). Personally, I’d like to see a VCA incorporated to provide more control over the oscillator output. But perhaps CTRLSHFT had other ideas?
This is a good idea for a MF. A MF pedal vocoder similar to the PaIA 6710 has also been suggested. Those would be excellent additions to the MF line. I crossing my fingers for that backlit drum machine. Makes me drool every time I think about it.
I sort of figured the VCA would be built in and be adjusted with the drive/mix knobs. I think if Moog puts out an osc unit they definitely need to include this, as buying a seperate unit just for a VCA/ADSR EG would be stepping into modular territory that I just don’t think their looking to get into. It’d be a pain in the ass for people on a budget too, probably.
murf sliders for the adsr would be really kool. The other aspect i was considering was maybe something similar to what the little phatty has. Sure, it’s more work, but if it means a more affordable unit, I’d totally go for it.
about the post filtering thing, it would only make a difference when the resonance is put up to self-ocsilation, if this was the case you would always hear a drone sine wave even when no keys are pressed.
this would be cool but the traditional VCO-VCF-VCA is a more useful hardwired connection if you ask me, but being able to build you own synth architecture is what modulars are all about
I think when moog say they don’t want to go modular they mean recreating the old modular design, i think they would and will eventually release something that will tie all the foogers together as an amazing modular effects/synth machine.
The Pitch to Voltage idea VCO/VCA, is just the thing to do this as well, it would work as a stand alone guitar pedal (admittedly a rather strange one) and it would complete the fooger line
as for the murf slider idea, i was also thinking about this:
imagine the murf lay-out
-----------------------VCO------------------------------
the top row of three knobs could house the VCO controls
FREQ
RANGE
WAVE
with a switch under them to turn the pitch - voltage control on or off
ON/OFF(ext)
Jacks
inputs:
FREQ
WAVE
SYNC
outputs:
OUT
----------------------CONTROLLER---------------------------------
The second row of knobs could control the pitch/gate tracking and mix between input and VCO
PITCH SENSITIVITY
GATE THRESHOLD
MIX
Jacks
outputs:
PITCH OUT
GATE OUT
------------------------VCA--------------------------------------
the row of eight sliders would have 4 of its sliders replaced a switch that selects the gate, either the gate produced by the input sound or an ext gate, when this is selected but nothing is plugged into the gate input the VCA is left wide open.
ON/OFF(ext)
The 4 sliders are ADSR
ATTACK
DECAY
SUSTAIN
RELEASE
Jacks
inputs:
VCA IN
GATE IN
ENV SCALE
outputs:
ENV
and then all there is left is
AUDIO IN
AUDIO OUT
from looking at current foogers i think you could get about 11 jacks on the back
from this idea there are too many but things like sync in and env scale could probably go
getting something like this plus an MF-101 and CP-251 would give you an amazing:
Just as a note on this topic, I was wondering if anyone has ever seen or used the Dual VCO rack mount that Moog manufactured in the 70s?
It wasn’t a pitch to voltage circuit, but rather two MiniMoog VCOs in a rackmount enclosure like the Moog Parametric EQ and 12 Stage Phaser rack units. It had CV inputs for each VCO, audio outputs, and a multiple. On the front it had controls for tune, pulsewidth, octave, waveform, on/off switch for VCO1, and tune, octave, waveform, sync on/off, and on/off for VCO2. There was an overall volume knob also. It looks pretty great, but I’ve never heard one. It was an oscillator expander for the original MiniMoog and MicroMoog.
