Is Moog selling out in cheap engineering?

The Moog Forum Moog Music General Topics Forum
1

I was just thinking about this new Moog for the mass’s philosophy

Which is basically cheap engineering and lowered build quality.
I have a Voyager and several Mooger fooger’s and a Theramen as well.

I also have a Minitaur which I did not order to tell the truth but that’s another story.

The Mintaur is by know means of the same build quality as the Bob Moog Designed gear I own, It just feel’s cheaper generally.

the result I must assume of price slicing sale’s team engineering, build it fast and build it crap and tack a big name on it

I thought about this when I was dissembling a Maranzt receiver today it was one of their later model’s built in the 80’s right after
Maranzt sold their name to a different company. I’ve looked inside many earlier Maranzt’s stereos and they are works of electronic art
. The one I took apart today was a piece of chintzy crap with a big name tacked on it.
I had read that this particular one was manufactured at a the low point in the company’s history and looking at this thing I find that easy to believe.


Korg has always been the go to cheap synth for me, they have the true knack for that in my opinion, the stuff they build is very endearing and fun for cheap.
I have nothing against cheap, that’s just not what the name Moog say’s to me I love turning these quality knob’s I suppose.
the knob’s on the Minitaur are just a bit looser and less smooth, how far doe’s Moog plan take this quality cutting philosophy?

None of my bussiness I suppose I just don’t really crave a cheap Moog anything,
priced reasonably maybe

2

First, it’s Theremin, not Theramen. It’s the name of its inventor Léon Theremin.
(EDIT: Offered purely as personal information, and not as criticism as some people have mistakenly understood it. I’m convinced many of you would have corrected him also if he had written Moug instead of Moog…) :wink:

Second, Moog Music is a boutique company, with about 50 employees. If they didn’t try to keep costs down by outsourcing and using less-than-army-rated components, their instruments would probably cost twice as much, if not more.

Like it or not, the cost of american labor is way higher than asian labor. So that’s why parts of their hardware is made in China, and then assembled in Asheville USA. It’s an acceptable balance between quality and price.

If all electronic devices we use and love today were still made in USA or Canada, nobody could afford to buy any of them !

So don’t go blaming small companies like Moog Music, blame global economy markets and capitalism to the extreme.

3

I don’t agree at all
we would simply have less complete garbage we don’t really need and more quiallty merchandise that last’s

All the semi slave laborers oversea’s do not put much effort and zero pride into what they build
exactly what is it they make we need so desperately and cheaply?

notice I misspelled quality for you I hope that makes feel a bit more superior

Not really looking to get into and argument anyway I like what I like and have the right to my opinion

And Moog has the right to do as so they choose as well
I would like to see more Quality made in America products out there and I think most would agree.

This global market in which we must compete is a bunch of treacherous politician’s made up lie

4

Just an observation…

Arp started out making 2500s; they ended with cheap synths like the Quartet and Solus.

Moog (old) started out making modulars; they ended with hockey games and telephones.

Octave-Plateau started out with the Voyetra 8; they ended with the Kitten.

SCI started out with the P5 and P10; they ended with the Prelude and Multitrack.

While the above is not 100% accurate as to what products each manufacturer started or ended with, there is a trend here.

5

Hey alien, there’s no need to be pedantic on a pointless forum while the guy who stated his opinion never asked for a spelling lesson. While you’re excusing the work by a manufacturer that some have considered mediocre, and wish to elevate your skillful use of the English language, what excuse have you for your poor grammar in paragraph three?

Let’s all just stick to the topics at hand and enjoy this meaningless forum, and leave out the unnecessary negativity.

6

Even the original Moog company “farmed out” their later stuff to sub contractors The Opus 3 circuits were made in Mexico (cheaper to do.) Used to work for polaroid,now they buy in cameras from Indonesia and stick their badge on?! There’s no discernably difference with the 2 Moog companies market wise. However whereas analogue ran out of steam in the 80’s, its back with a hungry vengeance - and moog quite rightly should capatilise any way (inexpensive or expensive as they see fit1 Great they’re back!

7

Many people have expressed their concern about Moog products since they started using Chinese components, but usually you get shouted down and told you’re a liar on Internet forums. A friend of mine has a later Voyager than mine. Mine has been superb. His has been horrific. He’s been told he’s a liar in various parts of the Internet and so have I when I’ve referred to the problems he’s had. Moog’s response to him was a derisory fob-off and he quite rightly refused it. So we get more and more reports of Moog stuff with faults (check out this forum), but there’s still rabid denial in some quarters. Moog are still overall good quality compared with some manufacturers, but the problems I’ve mentioned still exist.

8

Hmmm…
I’ve 2 select Voyagers,2007, no problems! not sure where the boards are made,but if the units out of warr\anty - irrespective of manufacturer,you have to pay,interestingly the surface mount stuff (if Moog ever use these components) are a pain in the butt to fix,I know techs that used to replace the whole board rather than fault find?! I,ve fixed one Voyager,op amp failure,2 years old,It can happen!

9

I don’t think thealien really meant any insult when he corrected your spelling.

10

As Kevin as already reminded us, when the very survival of a company is at stake, it’ll do anything to stay in business. Even if, in some cases, that means producing less than stellar products from time to time. And even then, some of those comapnies will still go out of business if mismanaged or fall victim of market declines, or a combination of both. As did the original Moog Music in the past.

Let’s hope they don’t suffer the same faith again…

As for SMD electronics, like it or not, this is the way of the future. Less costly to produce, as reliable as THT, but difficult to diagnose without specialized equipment (like JTAG) and sometimes very difficult to fix individual boards (due to multi-layers). But again, it’s a matter of costs. The time required by a service tech to replace a whole board with a new one, instead of diagnosing faulty individual components on that defective circuit board, is much less costly for repairs done under warranty. And since SMD boards are cheaper to produce to begin with, it’s a win-win choice for companies.

P.S. I’ve edited my earlier post in this thread to add a footnote to the spelling correction offered, to clarify what were my intentions in doing so. Thank you.

11

Was not the Phatty the last Bob Moog designed synth? The Minitaur feels like its built better for sure + the VCOs are spot on tuned on switch on.

12

I think he designed the sound engine only.

13

Re: the OP, look up what people refer to as “MBA disease”.

I’m speculating here of course… but at some point all those companies mentioned above (ARP, Marantz, etc.) were either bought out, or they brought in people to run their business. As a result, they began with these marvels of engineering/ingenuity that were likely not very profitable or sustainable, and ended in what people like us might perceive as mass-produced mediocrity.

IMO, the current Moog, Oberheim, DSI, etc.. seem to be finding a decent balance in all of that… as good as I’d expect given that people want everything for nothing these days (…including immediate customer service). And no matter what they might say, most will choose cost over service or quality (Amazon or Walmart anyone?)

I think it’s safe to say that something like this will simply not be happening, unless its SDIY or some boutique builder who will probably not be around long (if they value their time):

Just my opinion!

14

No doubt Moog does what it needs to do to remain competitive and make a profit on its instruments, and that means farming out manufacturing to Asia. Using SMT is of course a byproduct of that, as it is much more expensive to get TH boards made these days as the manufacturers simply don’t want to do them and charge quite a bit for it when they do. For the most part any electronics made today in any kind of quantity designed for mass consumption (as opposed to highly specialized) will be SMT due to this fact.

If classic through hole and made by a genius in a garage sort of manufacturing is more what you are after, there are of course folks like Macbeth (who still farm out some elements), and they rightly charge for such, and you lose all the software/microcontroller integration and support that Moog and DSI offer. Really you kind of have to pick what’s more important to you, vintage manufacturing style/reduced features/higher price tag/one man in a garage company for fewer features or modern manufacturing/reasonable price/modern convenience features/real company to (hopefully!) stand behind the product.

15

Maybe I’m missing or just disagreeing the OP points.
Fist of all as for as the Marantz gear goes. Yes, the old school stuff was great. As far as the new stuff goes it just as good if not better then any of the other mainstream Asian hifi. If you want old school quality Marantz, they do make it it’s called Reference Series. The Ref. Series. Is built like a tank and sounds very very good. Not my favorite sounding hifi but better than any other Japanese based manufacturer’s gear with the exception of possibly Luxman. It has been a while since I’ve heard Luxman components.The Marantz Reference Series is a huge jump in price compared to the mass market line. To the point that they don’t move much of it at all. And if the relied on the Reference Series alone Marantz would be once more out of business. Now If you want to compare that with US made gear, it is so unaffordable that even most Audiophiles don’t buy it new. And most of the components are sourced over seas. Skilled US labour is very high and it should be. I don’t wont to work for free, you? Also the big heaver US made stuff is no more reliable then some of the better over seas manufactured gear. And these domestic companies struggle every year to stay in business. I’ve sold the stuff for the better part of thirty years,I know what I’m talking about here.

Let’s look at what Moog, DSI Oberheim etc have to do in order to survive They have to cater to a cowed of hobbyist with real jobs and musicians that struggle to get good paying gigs, with the exceptions of the few folks on the big bus who can afford what ever it takes. They need the keep cost down while still maintaining a quality product. I personally think that Moog and most of the other boutique companies do find a nice compromise between quality build,reliability and affordability. I don’t think anyone at Moog Music is becoming Goldman Sachs rich off of us by cheeping out on build quality. As far as reliability, Remember even Mercedes Benz have repair facilities and space shuttles blow up

16

From repair point of view I shudder when I found a unit was SMT,ended up refusing the stuff (Novation/Spectral Audio etc… ordinarily repairing the older gear is fine (I can see what I’m doing?!)
and I’m happy just fixing stuff for close friends - nobody else! essentially component boards will be unservicable to techs in the near furure - meaning direct replacement from the manufacturer is the only option,and if they go under?..

17

^ agreed. This is the reason why I buy mostly vintage moogs, on par with the fact that they sound better anyway.

18

Cheap engineering is a simple statement describing something designed to be manufactured by cheap disinterested labor

I might in some sense question the ethic’s of such but it is current reality

My grandfather was a top sound engineer for several top tv and radio stations in Dallas Texas

He love electronics and he designed and self made a good deal of the gear he used.

1974 my father asked him to fix our fancy new Quasar tv

He said to my father “I don’t work on that crap” He pulled out a section on the tv that had all the part’s packed in on separate plug in cards. My grandfather new what it was. He called the design “work’s in a drawer you just order and replace a card” and he pulled one out “see”.
This was the dawn I suppose of the age of cheap engineering where thing’s are made in Giant factory’s overseas.
By people that work cheap under sub standard condition’s you could just smell the toxic soldering fumes in the tightly packed factory’s that made those tightly packed works in a drawer things .

My grandfather loved electronic’s with a true passion and he was of the generation just prior to Bob Moog.

They were extremely Self confidant Self Reliant Pioneers and Mr. Moog I am guessing was inspired by more than a few.

19

Business. Money. Ego.

Things Bob HAD to care about, but didn’t let him be held back by. His passion was poured into these toys we all have, and we love em to bits…

Moog as a company HAS TO care about these three things in order to succeed in the NOW. Longevity means nothing to a business who’s time to cash in is now. Lots of other companies reach a point where the money coming in is priority, for what ever reason.

FWIW, engineering is fairly low cost compared to build cost. If anything is cheap in the whole product stream, it’s always the customer. Rarely do you hear about someone who is proud of “over paying”. In a world where every itch needs to be scratched now, the first scratching post available will do. Rarely do consumers want to pay for a cure to the itch, so the inventors of the cure rarely make money. The guy selling nail in the plank scratching posts wins. Simple supply n demand.

If you want something Bob built, save up for it, and work as hard as he did to get it. Want something that Moog built, save a little less, and buy it - simple as that. The choice is yours - put all your time into getting what you want and stop focusing on what you don’t want… otherwise you’re just another sheep asleep not counting their blessings.

(It must be hard for the inventors at moog to sort through opinions to find the inspirational ideas that we get to play later!)

20

Here’s I guy talking about the passion for that which he make’s his own

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjiPTvdX0c0

I think musicians hear Tone, which is like a song in itself within the note’s they play

I listen to that which Bob Moog designed and it most certainly has Tone
I think he listened to Musician’s more than marketing mavens
at least at both the start and end of his days in engineering
I believe he had his trouble’s fighting off the greed in between.

It is difficult to keep the right’s to that which you may of a passion create.
Bob created the name Moog and it carries a lot of weight in engineering community’s and the music industry as well.

You can with technology make things more reliable and more cheaply, a reliable robotic piece of music making machinery.
That most certainly can be designed out of something in and effort to over control what and instrument doe’s

To purchase and Instrument built with Passion and Pride cost’s money and such hand built things might come with a bit of
natural inconsistencies.

I listen to the guy at Moog talk on the new sub Phatty and how gloriously stable it is.
He was speaking of the disadvantage’s of analog sounding like analog and how the kid’s where complaining about the unstable nature
of such musical beast’s.

The majority of these kid’s design their music on laptop’s and are used to the controlling ability’s of virtual analog synthesizers

What I got from the discussion was how the sub fatty was precision enough to “Emulate” virtual analog like these lap top maestro’s have grown accustomed to.

Analog emulating virtual analog? “stop the insanity” maybe these kid’s just like the idea of “true analog sound” just not the sound of true analog itself.
Perhaps they just like the Name Moog on stuff like a new piece of bling bling.

Give the customer what they want are your out of business I suppose

I for one really love the sound of Bob Moog Designed stuff
that’s just a matter of personal choice.

I like the sound of stuff with some Passion for Creation built into it, with a bit more than just a tacked on name.

shooting schematic’s over sea’s to prototyping factory’s?

I would not know how hand’s off are hand’s on they are currently running things