If you had to buy a Poly today?

The Moog Forum Moog Music General Topics Forum
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I love Analog, recently bought an older Jomox Drum (because I was tired of waiting for Linn), bought a Fender spring reverb, and have gathered a good collection of Moog gear.

I don’t like synths with huge displays which are really just computers running virtual synth software. A friend of mine, who is really a keyboard play (I’m proficient but don’t consider myself a kb player) has abandoned his dedicated gear and now uses Mac based softsynths.

So here I am with a quandary. Do I buy Prophet '08 or do I make a deal with the devil and pick up a Nord? I already have a Hammond so organ reproduction isn’t what I’m after; If I had the dough, I’d pick up one of the new Rhodes for 5 grand. So mainly, I want pad/resonant string sounds and something that closely resembles an electric piano and whatever is in between.

WIth so much written about a Moog Poly and knowing that there is a big difference between what you can coerce out of a poly analog and what a modeling synth provides, I guess I’m really just looking for something with a analog type interface (plenty of hands on controls that act as they should when tweaked) that sounds as close to analog as possible but with the benefits that you won’t soon see from Moog or anybody else.

Are Prophet owners satisfied with the '08 or is there still something missing?

Feedback on Nord’s, Access, Prophet and anything I may have missed appreciated. I’ve been playing Apple Logic sounds with my CZ-1 as a Midi Controller and have had enough! (anybody want to buy a CZ-1?!)

Am not interested in reading more about what is NOT yet shipping, there has been plenty written and I don’t mean to re-open that discussion.

Thanks guys.

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I would also like to know more about the DSI Prophet 08 and the Poly Evolver synths. Both sound like awesome products. I wonder how their bass sounds compare to the Minimoog Voyager, and whether or not they’re merely good enough, or actually very good at mono-synth sounds. That being said I would also like to see more comparisons between the Voyager and the older Mini Model D–Collectible value on the model D is getting it worth near what the new Voyager costs and I’m not totally convinced that the D brings with it corresponding “sonic value.”

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I really like the Nord Lead series, and I think it would fit your requirements just fine. The interface is laid out very well. One tip if you get one or try one out - in my opinion, it sounds great as long as you keep the resonance turned down lower. Once the res knob gets to about 1/3 the way up, that’s when it starts to show its digital harshness and you realize “this is no analog synth”. But at lower res settings I think it does an awesome job at emulating CEM type filters, just like what the Prophet uses. And the Nord has a proven history of reliability. I had an original Nord Lead 1, probably built around 1996, and when I sold it last year it was working perfectly - never had a problem. I regret selling it.

I’ve owned a DSI Evolver, but not a Prophet. My only advice here is that if you choose to get a Prophet, get the “PE” version (the Pot Edition) that has real knobs. A rotary encoder will wear out a lot faster than a true potentiometer. This has been proven over time with gear from all manufacturers, not just Dave Smith’s stuff.

Good luck with your search!

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I’d take a serious look at the Andromeda. They are discontinued, so unless you find a store with one in stock, you need to find one on eht used market. But WOW they sound great.

5

See if you can’t lay hands on an Ensoniq ESQ-1. Pretty neat machine. A hybrid with analog filters. If you have a good controller, the ESQ-M rack is really inexpensive and you can chain them for more poly and more multi timbrle. (Just no sequencer in it like the keyboard version.)

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Studio Electronics Omega 8

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I own a DSI Tetra, and even thought it’s not hands on I can still comment on sound as it can be identical to the Prophet '08 (except for fewer voices obviously).

The Tetra sounds great for a lot of stuff. Punchy, snappy and bright especially. I love the 2-pole filter, even though the resonance in that mode is VERY weak it can do some almost Yamaha CS like tones sometimes. I think that the Tetra owes quite a lot to an oberheim in sound as well (i.e. OB-Xa/OB-8). I’m not saying it sounds the same as those two just that it owes more to those in some ways than a Prophet 5 imho. This might sound strange but the one thing I actually think that the P’08/Tetra doesn’t do so well is smooth/warm pads. Theres something to the filter that doesnt do that type of smooth well. I think it’'s more Bass, lead and brassy. I think that i.e. the Matrix 6 does smooth/warm pads better.

Also if I understand correctly the OB-Xa/OB-8 Did not feature X-Mod or FM, The Tetra/P’08 doesn’t feature it either. It does however feature audio mod of the filter. I personally don’t find it as good sounding though as if you would have been able to modulate stuff directly from i.e. OSC2.

On the Tetra, I don’t care for the sub-osc so much but the one thing it haves over the P’08 is the programmable feedback imho. It can add a lot of character when used right.

If you aren’t in need of hands on I’d also recommend looking at some old poly like Oberheim Matrix 6 or the Matrix 1000 module as well.

My 2 cents

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Oh yeah, one final comment. If you go for a P’08, regardless of keyboard or module version be sure to take the pot edition. It’s just so much nicer with pots.

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When I am in the mood for warm mind-melting pads, I look towards my Q+.
Send it through a pair of MuRF pedals and drift away!

Amazing machine.

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All the polys that seem to attract me are up there in price. I don’t know if I’ll ever get a poly I really want, but if I would today I would look at:

The SE omega 4 or 8
Virus TI keyboard
Q+ keyboard
Waldorf Microwave I

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Well… yeah. I started by thinking that the Nord rack or Prophet '08 was in range pricewise (upwards of $2,000). I never heard of some of the kbd’s mentioned… Guess I should get a home equity loan (not that I have any equity!)

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Aiming for a Prophet sound I’d at least look at the Creamware Pro-12. It’s digital but supposed to be a great emulation, and its got full knob control and 12 voices.

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Id probably get a Prophet 08 Module and try to see if I could find a Yamaha Motif rack module, I figure both of thos would cost about the same as a new Prophet with the keys.


But of corse Im still holding out for the Moog Poly because I am carrying the torch for the Constellation System.

Now the question is…does ones keyboard skills justify the need for a polysynth…

Those Mark VII Rhodes are surely nice. My father really wanted to get one.

Eric

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Oh yeah I want to throw the Alesis ION in there for good measure! A highly underrated VA synth imho! 3 oscillators, with filter models on a lot of famous vintage synths like Moog, Oberheim, ARP, Jupiter 8 etc. It also has a lot of other exotic filter that are not found on vintage synths. I think it has 20 something filter models. A lot of people go on about how the ION sounds almost analogue, or how it sounds most analogue of the VA’s out there. Downside to other VA is that it only has 8 voices.

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Guys, that’s great feedback and many diverse opinions (half of these synths I had to look up!!).

At this point, I’m really impressed with the Virus TI. While a Prophet PE certainly gives a different tone than Moog with Curtis filters and all, in the end there is a realm of the type of sounds that I’m after that a true analog cannot touch (or a least I can find one that does). Strange to say that ‘here’ and to look around at all of my foogers and Moog gear and say that (blasphemy!).

If you’ve listened to Wendy Carlos’s Secrets of Synthesis CD (produced years ago), she says something along the lines of “Good Analog is Great but Good Digital is Better”. “huh?! I thought” I think I get it now.

Keep the comments coming if you’ve got more.

I was sold on the Prophet after seeing SonicState’s spectacular review of the P’08 http://insidesynthesis.blogspot.com/2008/04/prophet-08-review-on-sonic-state.html

But then I sat through KeyBoard Wizard’s ‘demo’ of the TI: http://vimeo.com/1149046 (there are several parts so if you have the time, have a look).

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as for wendy carlos statement:

it might seem strange but I’ve heard many analog synth gurus (people who made the history of synthetic music like italian band Goblin, Easy going or Alexander Robotnick)
getting tired or sick with the even sides of their beloved analog gear.
what I mean is that after 20 or 30 years of analog machines they decided to jump on the digital train,
which gives them more portability, stability, the ability to recall presets etc etc.
I took the reverse way, I started 15 years ago with VA stuff and plugin and then I moved towards real analog.
maybe many of us did the same. I’ll never get rid of my moog gear now so I’m not saying they’re right,
I’m only reporting what they told me and what I read about them:
they loose something in terms of sound quality, but life, especially on stage, is much simpler for them now.

as for poly synth advice:
old times classics like the memory or prophet5 or jupiter8 or ob-x would obviously be the best choice, but they’re pricey and sometimes unreliable.
I can tell you great things about the waldorf Q and the oberheim matrix 1000. I have them both and they’re much more versatile than my Juno-106.
you need a software to program the matrix, but it’s analog and it only costs something like 300e including the software and offers you a stunning modulation matrix.
what I usually do is running them through voyager or ms-20 filters and/or some moogerfooger ring or phaser to give them some body and saturation.
final analog touches are provided by a RE-201 tape echo.
that is to say that if you are tight on budget, you could also achieve great organic sounds starting from a good VA and then adding some analog stuff at the end of the chain.
hope this will help

ciao
ed

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For reference and If you are interested, here’s a small demo I did of the DSI Tetra: eXode - DSI Tetra Demo

The demo is consisting of 7 tracks, multitracked directly from the Tetra and into propellerheads Record. A bit of delay and reverb and that’s pretty much it.
The volume of the recording is a bit low. I must underline that any critisisms that I had of it are pretty minor. It’s such a wonderful little synth still and reckon the P’08 should be as well.

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I have been listening to this record for years, and it always inspires and confounds me. She is very articulate and knowledgeable about the topic; it’s really a course in synthesis basics, and especially composing/arranging within the limits of analog.

Her point about “good analog is good but good digital is better” has to do with the complexity that digital waveforms can achieve, which are more like “real” instrument sounds and capable of a wider sonic palette. The way to visualize this is that analog sounds are stronger in outline and stand out like a boldly colored, commercially printed cartoon, whereas digital waveforms are capable of greater subtlety and detailed modeling (like an oil painting). Besides the Secrets album, if you want to hear how her ideas translate into her work, listen to Beauty in the Beast and Digital Moonscapes.

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You said you wanted warm pads/resonant strings sound any particular artist/song that you could post would also help in getting advice. I have a P08 (with new encoder boards gratis from DSI) that basic sound you described can easily be achieved moreso in 4 pole mode than 2 pole as was previously stated resonance cannot only be fairly mildly applied in 2 pole although the new OS update may change some of the issues. EP’s are definately not a strong point with the P08 so adding a module of your choice would be best. Post a youtube link to what you are hoping to achieve and we can all go from there to give you more advice.

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I suggest a used Rhodes for Electric piano. A suitcase could get you the amp. You could use the effects loop for sounds. You could introduce another synth into that amp or another amp, one of the channel inputs on the side of the amp. This would be more economical than a Nord Lead II but they have great emulation of the Hammond and EP sounds. If you went the Nord Lead route, you could then use its midi and then just put a DSI Tetr4 on it. The only limitation to this scenario is you said you want the knobs to twiddle. A DSI prophet 08 would be great for that aspect of it. But true, you won’t get EP sounds from it.

About Wendy. Secrets of Synthesis came out in '87. Think about that. This is an analog synth pioneer (Player, not designer) who, in 1987 is saying that Digital is better than Analog. So if you are saying a Virus is better than a Prophet 08 and you’re using Wendy’s quote from 1987 to support that statement, you need to realize that Wendy never knew what a Virus was going to be. In 1987 everyone was ditching their Minimoogs–they were available in pawn shops for a couple of hundred bucks! Something relatively new at the time was the Oberheim Matrix synths, though, and the Xpander and Matrix 12 were monster analog synths, not incredibly easy to program, but still there were many routings–much more than the baby brothers Matrix 1000 and the Matrix 6–and the pads you could produce on these (Xpander and Matrix 12) are incredible, because of the extra stuff they had. Various ramp waves and lag processors and other stuff you could apply to the filters, of which there were several notch filters and bandpass filters that you could add resonance to, and get all kinds of complex and interesting pads on.

I know people who were into synthesis when it was actually new–like Wendy–and have heard them make similar statements. These people had long sold off their Oberheim SEM modules, but they still had their Xpander. They had sold off their ARP Oddysey but still had their ARP 2600.

Wendy was an innovator, and in 1987 Digital synthesis (particularly FM synthesis like the DX-7s and, later, the then-newer SY line of the early 90s. I read an interview with Wendy about the SY-77 and she was raving about them. She spoke about their ability to create various microtonal scales, etc. And it is true that FM synthesis was a very wide-open platform, and you could come up with many different tonalities because of their complex modulations that happened with the various algorithms.

But this was before VA. I think every time I hear VA it sounds cheap. It may be valid for most dance/stage applications, because by the time the sound source is amplified and put over a high-wattage speaker system, and mixed in with other sound sources, the human ear can’t generally detect the difference. Still, if you listen to analog oscillators and filters and compare them over headphones or a good speaker system, by themselves without processors added, VA comes up very much short in emulating analog sounds. That doesn’t mean they’re not valid.

So for the above reasons I am going to simply remove VA synths from my personal list of choices. What does that leave left over? It leaves very few analog synths, the P08 and Tetra and other DSI being part of those choices. I’m not shopping so I’m not aware of very many other polysynths being sold today. The Andromeda is no longer sold. It has good word out on its sound quality and it probably has fantastic patches. I am not aware personally of how good the pads are on the Prophet 08. I would guess though that you could get the best of both worlds with a Poly Evolver. Those feature 2 analog and 2 VA oscillators per voice. You could get P08 sounds and Virus sounds out of it, and combinations of the 2 so I would imagine you could get all kinds of thick pads from a Poly Evolver. That’s just based on limited viewing of them online, though. I have personal experience with the Xpander and Matrix 12. If you could find a good keyboard/Midi controller you could have your cake and eat it too, by getting a controller synth like the Prophet 08 or a Poly Evolver, and then if you feel like you need some EP emulators you could get a Nord Electro Rack. Or, go the other way around and get a Nord Electro and use it to control a poly synth module like an Xpander, or a Tetr4. There are several ways to approach it, I think the onboard knob outlay of a Poly Evolver or Prophet 08 is very enticing, and then you could get a nord rack later. I don’t see the benefit of getting more than one keyboard controller unless you need them for discreet control of the sounds and the ability to play other sounds with another keyboard. The extra money in cost seems redundant.

Also I don’t mean to offend anyone who’s hell-bent on getting a good VA. You can get them from your computer as well, though. I just think that MIDI is a good thing to use to save space, and so far my ears haven’t been convinced that VA is really better than or as good as analog. It may be great at what it does, though, without being compared to analog.