Analogue or Digital

I remember a long while back now when CDs first came out that many argued that something was lost in the process, some living quality that seemed to removed from the sound. Now, many years later, you can find plug ins for digital workstations which vinylize recordings. In the end, I always believed, and I still do, that this was a fallacious arguement except perhaps the most trained of ears that in the end, I doubt are really listening to the music as much as trying to hear suble differences in the sound.

Considering the kind of low tech car radios that people listened to so much music on in the past, iand loved it, t seems silly to argue about minute differences in sound.

That brings me to the basis of this post, analogue and digital synthesis. Here I would like to argue the other side. After getting my Voyager the other day, I started to tweak things and began to experience with my ears and perception, a whole new universe of sounds. Now I had some experience with this before with Moogerfoogers which is really what ultimately lead me to the Voyager.

I am trained in mathematics and part of me still can turn a cold analytic, antisceptic, scientific stare of the world and break it up into parts and see how they fit together. Sometimes, that can serve me well even in music. But another part of me is equally strong, the artist who percieves in another way, a more intuitive way and its this artist that hears something very different in a Voyager, something I like very much or I would not have invested so much money in it.

When we talk about converting analogue to digital we are talking about only two (or however many for surround) signals being broken into parts and reconstituted. Does it work. Yes, I think it works very well. It’s why I like my M3 with all its sampled sounds. It sounds great.

But here is the problem with analogue synthesis. We are not talking about duplicating a sound (as in the case of CDs). We are talking about sound that is being shaped by electronics. Now these electronic circuits don’t play by digital rules. they are not broken up into parts and they respond s quickly the electrons that give them life. They also interact as in the case of modulation and its for this reason that even the most carefully refined of virtual models fails, in my mind, rather badly. In short, this is why I have a Voyager and this is what I hear when I listen to my Voyager, something that is lacking in digital. Not better, no worse, just different.

A reasonable posit, to be sure. I would add to this, sound aside, that a great many analog synths are more user friendly, or immediately usable, if you will than digital synths. The nature of digital technology allows for a great number of functions hidden in menus. Some people can work with that format just fine. Not me though. I like knobs and visible functions, it helps me work and keeps me engaged.

If you had a good stereo and decent turntable with a good cartridge, you would hear a great difference in warmth and smoothness between a direct disc LP and a CD of the same source. Same as in a studio, if you set a 2600 and virtual 2600 together, you could hear the difference, Easily.

same when you dj or play live in a big club with massive soundsystem. the same track plays MUCH better, fuller, warmer, from a 1200 turntable than not from a cdj or a laptop.

I wanted to address the turntable issue although granted, not directly related tio a Voyager. Much of what is commonly called “warmth” is really a certain kind of distortion or shaping of sound. For example, guitar amps are often valued for their distortion, most specifically, tube amps. Tubes have a more rounded type of clipping and therefore their harmonic overtones are different and percieved as warmer or softer.
I percieve them as warm which is why I use a tube pre-amp for a mic.

Amps also have what is called sag which is literally a drop in the voltage but percieved as a spongyness in the sustained part of the note. Marshall amps are known for this for example.

So when speaking of CDs and turntables or digital and analogue you have to distinquish between what sounds good (is warm and spongy for example) and what is accurate. Digital recording records and plays back (on CDs) what is there in the audio. Nothing more and nothing less. There are some issues with sampling rates and the filters used in the process but overall, close to perfect reproduction.

The process of recording to vinyl and playing it back is going to result in some type of shaing of what you hear. Poor quality turntables don’t do this well and instroduce noise that is not percieved as desirable. High quality ones still would distort but in a pleasing way.

I would love to see someone show me that an LP is a more accurate recording that digital. Simply saying it warm means it sounds good not that its a perfect recordinig.

I totally agree that a complex menu system in digital synths can be a drawback. I have a Korg M3 and I love it but it certainly qualifies as having a complex system of menus, many of them have several levels. KARMA on the M3 is even more complicated, not only has several levels on the synth but there is software by which you can program it at an even deeper level.

This complexity allows for complex sounds and layered sounds to be programmed. You speak of knobs. The M3 has 8 sliders, 8 swtiches, 8 pads, a ribbon controller, an XY touch screen and a ljoystick all of which can be assigned as well as a complex modulation mixer. I have to admit that when I am using it, I forget what slider does what but if it has a knob for every parameter it would be unmanagable which is of course why it has assignable controls.

Digital synths are computers running programs and when you have a program you can pretty much assign any variable in the program to a control so you have to have complex menus to manage all of this.

I see the Voyager more as a performance instrument but also an experimental instrument. First, when you get to intimatly know not only what the knobs do (their function) but also their feel, the sounds that you get when you move them, then they become part of the instrument. I recently watch this Bob Moog Interview from the Red Bull Academy:

http://matrixsynth.blogspot.com/2009/08/red-bull-academy-bob-moog.html

Its pretty enlightening. Moog understood that with too complex a system that you loose the sense of instrument. The Minimoog, and latter Voyager, are instruments and the knobs are not setting parameters, they are part of the peformance.

Then when you go to the back, you have this experimental music lab. An interface to MIDI and CV control that opens it up to modules and moogerfoogers. This opens it up to a world of sound that you can’t get on a digital synth.

Most modern digital workstations and synths just play samples or emulate analogue synths. There are some expceptions to this with forays into physical modelling (Yamaha, Korg - OASYS), a bit of time twisting with the Roland V-Synth, same wavetable stuff (Waldorf, Nord), but mostly sample playback. This means that they can sound like just about whatever yuo want them to if you want to buy samples or make them yourself. But It’s limited by the samples you have.

You can take a Voyager, sample it with an M3, and play it back and the M3 will sound like a Voyager. I honestly believe that this is where Pink Floyd lost something when they went with a Kurzweil K2000 and interestingly enough, Rick Wright. Don’t get me wrong, its a great synth and more flexible than most, but all they wanted to do was sample their old sounds and use them. They closed of their sonic world. So you take this vast universe that is the EMS VCS3 and the Minimoog and you stick it all into a box as a bunch of samples. It works, but its closed to experimentation.

The Voyager opens up possiblities and puts them in front of you so that they become the performance. Thats a pretty powerful paradigm. So sure, I love my Korg M3 because it can sound like many many things. My Voyager can’t sound like a Hammond B3 which my M3 can. But on the other side, my M3 will only have the Voyager sounds that are sampled and loaded into it and they can’t change during a performance.

Again, I am not in either camp. I see advanges to both and so, I have both. Both, I believe, will complement one another and work very well together.

So, it’s perfect even if it sounds harsh and hard? Not for me. My ears are analog and are used to listening to analog sounds. If being dead on accurate puts my teeth on edge, I don’t want it. What’s strange is the music sounds good going into tape in the studio. Sounds all harsh and brite after A to D conversion and being put on a cd. Since it doesn’t sound like it did in the studio, it can’t be all that accurate. Just my opinion.
But what does it realy matter anymore since most people are happy with MP3’s. (Good enough for a car stereo or a set of cheap earphones, I guess)

Let me chime in here. :slight_smile: I have some old classical music CD’s that were recorded ADD. You know what they sound like? MIDI files. I have Switched on Bach on vinyl, as well as a whole bunch of other music, from Jefferson Airplane to Led Zeppelin and everything in between. And yes, all my records are alphabetized. They do not sound like MIDI files at all. So, if you want a good comparison, try it out for yourself. A record will pick up the ambient qualities of the studio, the precision of the microphones, the hum of the amps, as well as the slightest background noise which you might only hear on an expensive turntable run through an expensive amp. Even tuning issues can be heard. So, yes. An LP beats a CD hands down for quality. :wink:

Vinyl takes up so much space.

It does sound good though.

I heavily perfer analog.
The entire time I was going to school for my EE, I was all about analog. I had a professor who thaught the same way.

You can do some really cool things with digital logic inside the Nord G2 though. :sunglasses:
I also enjoy my digital camera.

My watch is “old school” you must wind it up and you can see all the gears on the inside. Once, the flywheel jumped and I had to bring it to a watchsmith. Talk about a dying breed!!! Most time pieces these days are disposable. :unamused:

I really started this thread to talk about the Voyager and what is different about analogue synthesis but it would certainly seem that there are still some who prefer vinyl.

I have heard many people argue that viniyl is superior but what I would love to have shown objectively is that this is the case. A few of the comments here have peaked my interest and are of particular relavence to the dicussion that I would like to comment on. First, the comment about the music sounding good going into the digital recording and not good coming out.

This is an interesting comment because it would be difficult to test it. The only tool I can think of to do a comparision is computer which of course means that both audio streams would have to be digitized which would pretty much invalidate the whole arguement. I don’t know of an anlalogue way to compare two signals.

In theory (and that is an important distinction) there is a limit to human hearing. Most of us have probably had those hearing tests when they play a tone (probably a sin tone) at different frequencies and then move progressively higher and lower to see what the perceptable limits are. The acoustical theory behind sampling rates is based on the idea that sound is made up of those sin tones or partials. In my own study I have found that that is not really a correct assumption since its based on a static concept of sound.

So without going into detail, I understand that people would prefer vinyl but I would love to hear some objective reasons about accuracy. Simply saying it sounds better is purely subjective. It may sound good to some and not others. For example, I like tubes and some people don’t. Tubes actually distort sound.

In the same way, I would love to hear theories on why analogue synthesis circuits work better than digital emulations. One comment here was praising the G2. Well, the G2 is just running a program and by virtue of that, it’s output is digital. Perhaps it applied analogue filters in the end (I don’t really know its design) but I have heard from some that an analogue filter applied to a digital synthesizer makes it sound more analogue. I think this is true.

Bottom line, I would love to see people who argue this point argue at a technical rather than subjective level. smply stating that something sounds better or picks up quit transient sounds does little to really provie the arguement in an objective way. I believe that there are solid scientific reasons to criticize digital and I reject a concept of sound based on partials. I have a degree in mathematics and its very easy to show why this concept is flawed.

So what you hear might be real and frankly, if it sounds better to you, be that your own perception or some real quality, then go for it. But in the end, a bit more science and less subjectivity might add some validity to the arguement.