MF-109M - yet another VCA/EnvGen mockup

[Vsyevolod]

Congratulations on your SON! Mine is 8mos today. Our first.

...and mine just turned 1 year old yesterday...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y5-OHpL08s

Stephen

[radioland]

Congratulations on your SON! Mine is 8mos today. Our first.

Nice to have a little moogerfooger in the house!

Thanks man! Yes, to have children is such a blessing, and our two girls (two and soon four years old) love their little brother a lot. I hope that I can share my love for music and experimentation with all of them.

Good to meet fellow young fathers here (to prove that people around synthesizers don`t have to be quirky nerds buried in heaps of strange gear )!

To be honest I don`t understand every part of your CP-255, Eric. Could you elaborate on that a little bit? Am I right that all jacks labeled "in" or "out" are for audio signals? The dual trigger delay is for the "D" stage before the ADSR, right? I also don`t understand the module on the far right side, and where your gate in or out would go. But as far as I understand it it would really give the whole idea a modular touch.

As far as I`m concerned I wouldn`t have any problems with Moog "using" my humble sketches - just send me a bunch of the first ones off the production line and maybe a Voyager RME and I will be happy and satisfied ...

Here`s my last go on the pedal version of a gate/env/vca Fooger:



I think it makes more sense to put the feedback knob in the center column together with the drive knob, and put the gate/env loop knob in the vca section.
The big problem still ist that you have not enough jacks for all the desirable CV inputs and outputs. So maybe it should have TRS audio inputs and outputs. Which CV ins can be left out the easiest, without loosing too much? Maybe amount and sensitivity.

I'm still racking my brain regarding the idea I had - it's complex yet simple in result. More to come soon.

I`m really curious about your idea! By the way, what`s a good book or website for starters to learn about electric circuits with all their components and signal flows?

How do you imagine a cp-sized sequencer?

Cheers, radioland

[Bryan B]

I hereby state in the public record that I am willing to sign any document that gives Moog the rights to produce any ideas I repeatedly ask them to make (including envelopes). Any Photoshopped image I post here remains under their ownership if it contains the Moog and MoogerFooger logos as far as I am concerned. I will take them down or provide better artwork at their request as well.

[Colonel Monk]

Wow, Bryan, you`re the man! Of course I don`t mind you converting my lousy scribbling to convincing images. Thank you!
The idea of dropping the delay and hold stages and so be able to squeeze two ADSR envelopes into the same space sounds tempting. But then, only one could be used for the sound at the audio input, the other would only be accessible via CV out, unless you had multiple audio inputs and outputs on the MF-109M. Would that be convenient? And then you would have to skip up to three CV ins or outs of the maximum of 10 to make room for additional audio ins and outs and CV outs.

By the way, which of the two designs do you like better or do you think will provide an easier workflow? I prefer the first one with the drive knob in the center column as usual. And of course the loop switch has to be a rocker switch - I`d love to see a green one on a Moogerfooger one day.

Dan, I hear you... I have read through the many pages of CP-style mockups and requests for the missing Env/VCA Fooger. In my opinion, some ideas tried to squeeze in too many different things, others were too much of a niche product or too far away from the whole Moogerfooger concept. How would a Moogerfooger with two ADSRs, 8-step amplitude modulation array and controls for gating and LFO look like? I think that Moogerfoogers are what they are because of the endless possibilities they give you - and because of the limitations they have.

Thanks for joining the discussion, I will be pleased to read more thoughts and comments!

Cheers, radioland

Super Cool advancement on this idea. I really like it, and I'm with you on the vertical layout and GREEN Rocker!! YES!!

The form factor is really not as big as it seems... The pots and I/O jacks take up quite a bit of room. So agreed, I think doing stereo would really be pushing the space constraints. You'd have to give up some functionality most likely to make room for more signal.... The fact that no other moogers (that I'm aware of) are stereo, it just doesn't really fit.

I think one of the reasons that people are interested in the CP-251 form factor is that if you're using the rackmount brackets, you probably have a vacancy next to the CP-251, and in the case of my moogertron, I have six moogers 3 and 3, and with the CP row, the wooden "rack" that I have it in is already over 3 feet high (I left room between rows to make it easy to plug/unplug)..

There are enough moogers now, that I suppose I'm headed for another row even though it's already too big. But I can't really see getting rid of any of them, and have been wanting both the new MIDI-delay and the Cluster Flux - so with the MF-109 I'd have a cool 9 moogers!

Foogertron 10,000!! (you know, 1,000 per moogerfooger....have to count the CP too...)

[Colonel Monk]

OK, yeah, so I was looking at the crowded I/O on the mooger format, and I just don't think you could fit that many jacks there. They are larger than the inside than the plastic nut from the outside....

I think TRS is the way to go to minimize.

Don't our moogers already have protection built in for CV being plugged into signal? I could swear I've done it on accident in our dimly lit rehearsal studio.... And had no troubles. Just sayin, I don't think it would really damage anything. Willing to be proven wrong, as long as, it's not by damaging anything....

I do really like the fitment of the CP style "109" though - it would fit awesome into my setup, and it would give you all the room you need for the extra I/O.

I guess the sell is, does it really belong there or not? I think there is a sort of convincing argument that the "109" would not really be a staple unit for a guitar player.

Not to trod off topic, but really, how many of us that have more than 1 or 2 Moogers use them on the floor? Not me.

I'm a bass player by trade, and occasionally I play my bass thru Foogertron but rarely. All that modulation doesn't really do much with a non-sustaining signal.

Plus, you're using a device that requires constant tweaking. I'm not old, but I'm not young either - bending over with a 10lb bass hung around your neck sucks if you have to do it much.

I have my foogertron sort of set up like an "easel" - where I can reach the controls without bending over.

Cool ideas though, keep it going.

CM

[Vsyevolod]

16 Moogerfoogers here (+ 2 MP-201's), no way am I putting them on the floor... It's my mini modular.

Stephen




.

[radioland]

I have 10 Moogerfoogers right now and I always keep them on a table. I thought about the jack orientation problem for a while and came up with this idea:



Keep the three IKEA Rast bedside tables at a convenient hight and you have a bunch of Foogers that have their jacks in the same orientation as the CP-sized units. Like this you can use a 109 pedal quite comfortably.

I still feel somehow that if a Envgen/Gate/VCA-Fooger is to be realized one day, it has to be in a form that will attract more than "just" us semi-modular freaks...

Cheers, radioland

[EricK]

Radioland,

That's a tiny computer! Must be one of those old tablets?
Regarding the "CP-255" (to which I would also gladly relinquish any rights to (provided they let me beta-test).
The first module is a VCA with a four channel audio mixer as an interface.
The CV input is for modulating the VCA such as for the creation of tremolo.
The switch, just as it works on the Voyager, disconnects the first envelope generator from the VCA.
The four inputs are audio inputs.
The two outputs are audio outs. The bottom output jack was just inserted there for aesthetic purposes, but a second audio output could be useful.

The envelope generators, are Attack Decay Sustain and Release, totally independent, except the first is hardwired to the VCA.

The third is a dual trigger delay based off the Moog 911a module. Independent of the envelope generators, but commonly used in conjunction with 2 envelope generators on the big system 55’s (hence the name CP-255).

The last module is an envelope follower based on the Moog 912. The signal (audio) input on the left, probably exits at the control output on it’s right. Below the signal input is the control input which I can only assume since the line is drawn exits at the control output. It is essentially the 912, however that module works haha. I included this because Moog already has the envelope follower circuits in two foogers, so this would put panel graphics to it, and would be sort of a instrument interface similar to what the dotcom module is.

Stephen,
CongratulationsI great video.

I shot this a few days ago.."Baby Beat Poet."

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=684688128255219

[radioland]

That's a tiny computer! Must be one of those old tablets?

Haha, no, I was just too lazy to start all over when I realized that my trusty 2009 Macbook Pro got way too small . I added it at the end to show how I could use the free space on top of the left rack.

My idea is to place them at a convenient angle and put the power supplies inside the boxes (I already have a Cioks DC10 and I`m really happy with it).

regarding the "CP-255" (to which I would also gladly relinquish any rights to (provided they let me beta-test).
The first module is a VCA with a four channel audio mixer as an interface.
The CV input is for modulating the VCA such as for the creation of tremolo.
The switch, just as it works on the Voyager, disconnects the first envelope generator from the VCA.
The four inputs are audio inputs.
The two outputs are audio outs. The bottom output jack was just inserted there for aesthetic purposes, but a second audio output could be useful.

The envelope generators, are Attack Decay Sustain and Release, totally independent, except the first is hardwired to the VCA.

The third is a dual trigger delay based off the Moog 911a module. Independent of the envelope generators, but commonly used in conjunction with 2 envelope generators on the big system 55’s (hence the name CP-255).

The last module is an envelope follower based on the Moog 912. The signal (audio) input on the left, probably exits at the control output on it’s right. Below the signal input is the control input which I can only assume since the line is drawn exits at the control output. It is essentially the 912, however that module works haha. I included this because Moog already has the envelope follower circuits in two foogers, so this would put panel graphics to it, and would be sort of a instrument interface similar to what the dotcom module is.

OK, now I got (most of) it, thank you!
I`d love to have a mini-modular like this where you can use the different sections independently or "traditionally". To combine mixer and VCA is really elegant. Do you know how the dual trigger delay works, i.e. how the processed CV is "stored"?
Yeah, the envelope follower looks a bit confusing. What does the bottom knob do for example?
On such a box it would be essential to color code audio and CV jacks (are the envelope and delay jacks audio or CV jacks?). How would this box handle gates?


Now that there are already so many viewers and writers in this thread, and so many improvements and suggestions have been made, I`d really love to know what the good people in Asheville think about it all...

Cheers, radioland

[radioland]

I do really like the fitment of the CP style "109" though - it would fit awesome into my setup, and it would give you all the room you need for the extra I/O.

Seems like many here would love to have the Gate/Env/VCA thing in cp-style... I tried to fit my 109-ideas into the cp-format, and here`s what it looks like:



Red nuts are for audio, green ones can power an expression pedal. The lights in the audio in section work like the drive lights on the moogerfoogers, and the sensitivity LED lights up when a signal triggers a gate.

You have to get used to the slider section orientation, and the jack arrangement is not as elegant as on the cp-251 or on Bryans design, but you can fit in all of the inputs and outputs that I originally suggested, like the stage length control knob and jack.
It still isn`t a pure control unit, though, and it currently lacks some sort of bypass option.

I guess the sell is, does it really belong there or not? I think there is a sort of convincing argument that the "109" would not really be a staple unit for a guitar player.

That`t the critical question! And that`s why I originally started this thread.

I think that the Freqbox and the MurF are great examples for unlikely success (one has been asked for for quite some time, the other one came out of the blue): Who thought that an oscillator "effect" would sell? Well, one that can hard sync and has controls for envelope to frequency and FM is interesting for guitar and synthesizer players. Who thought that a fixed filter bank would sell? Well, one with animation and different envelope shapes does...

We/Moog will have to find a design and configuration that will appeal to guitar players as well as synthesists. And maybe a gate/envelope/vca-pedal or box with the features that have been suggested in this thread will achieve that...

Any thoughts on the sequencer box idea from the last page, by the way?

Cheers, radioland

[Alien8]

Building on the other ideas presented and a few of my own, here is the flow diagram I came up with (BIG thanks to Bryan B for creating the pretty mock-up and for helping with posting images!!):





Written explanation:

6 knobs - Drive, Bias, Sensitivity, Gate Source, Mix, & Output.
8 sliders - Hold1, Attack, Hold2, Decay, Hold3, Release, Amount & Offset.
1 (green) rocker switch - Invert & Normal.

Bypass foot switch
Tap Tempo / Trigger foot switch

2 Audio inputs
2 Audio stereo outputs

Gate CV / Audio In
Envelope CV In

Sensitivity CV In
Mix CV In

Gate CV Out
Envelope Generator CV Out

MIDI input

LEDs for Drive, Bias, Gate Trigger / Tempo


AUDIO
Two Audio inputs "Audio (L)" & "AUX Audio (R)". AUX is switched, when un-used "Audio (L)" is supplied here. One can input either a single audio source, or a stereo source, or two separate sources entirely. The input level of both channels can be adjusted at the Drive & Bias controls. The Audio signal is then sent to channel specific VCAs, a mixer and finally stereo output jacks. Mix controls the blend between the input signal and the effected signal. Output controls the overall level of the final sound.


VCA
The VCA can be controlled by an internal Envelope Generator or an externally supplied CV. A rocker switch is provided to "Invert" the control voltage for the right channel only. The result provides either panning / cross fading effects or volume envelope effects to both output channels. When only the mono output is used with two inputs the effect is an automated cross-fading mix. When one input and one output are used, the result is an additive tremolo effect that sounds similar to a Bias tremolo.


ENVELOPE GENERATOR
The Envelope Generator contains six stages: Hold1, Attack, Hold2, Decay, Hold3 and Release.

HOLD1 stage is time based. (1ms - 10s)

ATTACK is time based (1ms - 10s) and changes the voltage from 0v to the Hold2 voltage.

HOLD2 is peak based (+/-5V bi-polar voltage output) where the peak relates to the level of the VCA. In Invert mode with stereo outs, this controls the L / R stereo position, in Normal mode, this is the volume of the sources. Pressing and holding the TAP foot switch allows the user to set the length of time that the hold cycle is engaged for using the slider from 1ms to 10s.

DECAY is time based. (1ms - 10s) and changes the voltage from the Hold2 voltage to the Hold3 voltage.

HOLD3 is peak based (+/-5V bi-polar voltage output) where the peak relates to the level of the VCA. In Invert mode with stereo outs, this controls the L / R stereo position, in Normal mode, this is the volume of the sources. Pressing and holding the TAP foot switch allows the user to set the length of time that the hold cycle is engaged for using the slider from 0ms to infinite. At the maximum setting this hold stage acts as a sustain stage.

RELEASE is time based (1ms - 10s) and changes the voltage from the Hold3 voltage to 0v.

The envelope voltage is available at the CV out.


GATE / TRIGGER
The Envelope Generator is triggered by a Gate source. The source of the gate is selected using the Gate source knob, seven options are present. The unit contains an internal Gate generator that can be applied to either audio source, or the control voltage input - these sources have a sensitivity applied to them, meaning you can control when the gate is triggered by the source audio level. Each of these sources can trigger in two modes - Single, or Mulit. Single forces a full cycle of the EG based on Gate length. Multi allows a re-trigger to occur at any point in the cycle. Similar options are provided for the CV input, where the sensitivity can be applied to a third audio signal - the signal is not present at any output. The final source is a looping EG that is sync'd to the tap tempo, Gate CV pulse, or MIDI clock source. At any time, the Tap / Trigger foot switch can be used to trigger the gate, however it will behave corresponding to the Single / Mult. / Loop setting.


PATTERN
Two additional parameters - amount and offset have been set as sliders. Amount controls the amount of the envelope that is sent to the VCA. Offset is a bipolar control that can be used in conjunction with the Hold1. As offset is moved away from the centre position, the envelope sent to VCA2 is shifted by the amount specified. The limits are set as a ratio of the overall envelope. 1:1 produces an envelope that has all stages synchronized between VCAs. 1:16 would produce VCA1 envelope and 16 looped VCA2 envelopes. At the flip side, 16:1 would produce 16 VCA1 envelopes while one VCA2 is produced. The result is a rhythmical pattern in stereo, complex tremolos, or complex mixing of audio.


MIDI
Under the hood MIDI options would allow for adjustment of the stereo phase option. This would allow the user control of added width & balance within the unit, increasing the stereo field produced.

MIDI in would allow clock sync, and control of all parameters. This is where creativity can really be applied, as I had so many ideas for this part that it would take a while to type. Ultimately the architecture of the rest of the pedal would help define this. Things like syncing the EG stages to MIDI clock, as opposed to just the gate would be great.

CONCLUSION
I believe this idea should appeal to all users from DJs, synth lovers, guitar players and studio engineers. As usual, Moog sound quality to warm your tone!!

[radioland]

Building on the other ideas presented and a few of my own, here is the flow diagram I came up with (BIG thanks to Bryan B for creating the pretty mock-up and for helping with posting images!!):

Hey Alien8, I`ve been waiting curiously for your ideas, and I love them! What a great thing to see ideas evolve and become better. I`ve been enjoying this collaborative thread a lot, and what a treat would it be to actually build such a thing collaboratively .

AUDIO
Two Audio inputs "Audio (L)" & "AUX Audio (R)". AUX is switched, when un-used "Audio (L)" is supplied here. One can input either a single audio source, or a stereo source, or two separate sources entirely. The input level of both channels can be adjusted at the Drive & Bias controls. The Audio signal is then sent to channel specific VCAs, a mixer and finally stereo output jacks. Mix controls the blend between the input signal and the effected signal. Output controls the overall level of the final sound.


VCA
The VCA can be controlled by an internal Envelope Generator or an externally supplied CV. A rocker switch is provided to "Invert" the control voltage for the right channel only. The result provides either panning / cross fading effects or volume envelope effects to both output channels. When only the mono output is used with two inputs the effect is an automated cross-fading mix. When one input and one output are used, the result is an additive tremolo effect that sounds similar to a Bias tremolo.

What a clever way to implement panning, stereo and tremolo effects!
To make the Gate in jack also an "aux audio in" jack is a fantastic idea and should really please DJs and producers, even more so when you can have the resulting envelope both normal and inverted. The offset control is a great idea as well - you provide so many options in one single box!

GATE / TRIGGER
The Envelope Generator is triggered by a Gate source. The source of the gate is selected using the Gate source knob, seven options are present. The unit contains an internal Gate generator that can be applied to either audio source, or the control voltage input - these sources have a sensitivity applied to them, meaning you can control when the gate is triggered by the source audio level. Each of these sources can trigger in two modes - Single, or Mulit. Single forces a full cycle of the EG based on Gate length. Multi allows a re-trigger to occur at any point in the cycle. Similar options are provided for the CV input, where the sensitivity can be applied to a third audio signal - the signal is not present at any output. The final source is a looping EG that is sync'd to the tap tempo, Gate CV pulse, or MIDI clock source. At any time, the Tap / Trigger foot switch can be used to trigger the gate, however it will behave corresponding to the Single / Mult. / Loop setting.

That`s a great feature and adds a lot to the already huge flexibility. What I`d like to see added though is some kind of "decaying looping envelope". With a steady sound source like two Freqboxes it would be nice to have more options than "only" single or looping envelope. Maybe you could use the "unused" half of the knob range for that?

CONCLUSION
I believe this idea should appeal to all users from DJs, synth lovers, guitar players and studio engineers. As usual, Moog sound quality to warm your tone!!

I totally agree with that! The only fear I have is that such a device would not be cheap... And the only sad thing is that with stereo ins and outs you sacrifice other CV options. But I guess I`d be more than happy to do so, looking at the possibilities.

Now, who`s going to build the prototype?

Cheers, radioland

[Alien8]

Thanks for the kind words. The idea came through me.

I'm really hoping Moog at least tries their iteration of this idea, and I would love to hear it. After all, they have some form of a design for each section of this pedal in all of their other designs.

I wouldn't expect this to be "cheap" either. Not much in the fooger line is cheap, but we don't want cheap, we want diversity & control with little waste. This would probably run near to the price of a MIDI MuRF if not a little cheaper, maybe as low as $400...

[radioland]

...been playing with the kids outside...

I'm really hoping Moog at least tries their iteration of this idea, and I would love to hear it. After all, they have some form of a design for each section of this pedal in all of their other designs.

Yeah, I hope so too! Now that we know what they have been doing for the last three years (and they still managed to make the Sub Phatty and the Sub 37!), now they should have enough free manpower and time for such a comparatively tiny device...

I wouldn't expect this to be "cheap" either. Not much in the fooger line is cheap, but we don't want cheap, we want diversity & control with little waste. This would probably run near to the price of a MIDI MuRF if not a little cheaper, maybe as low as $400...

That`s true. If we wanted just an Envgen and and Amplifier we could get that for under 300 anywhere. And I firmly believe that the writers in this thread would not be the only ones ready to pay the price for this missing Moogerfooger.

Cheers, radioland

[facon]

I don't see Moog releasing a Moogerfooger that isn't also a stand alone effect by itself. This would be amazing for synth and multi-fooger owners, but don't see much appeal to somebody looking for a single effect.

I think if you added a fuzz circuit and could allow for crazy gated fuzz sounds, or added an octaver that could be controlled by the envelope, you'd be in business. Since the Freqbox can already get some fuzz like tones (sort of), there's more room in the lineup for an octaver. Like the Microsynth, but instead of an envelope controlling the filter, have the envelope simply control the volume of the octaves (with a master mix/blend for the envelope amount on the octaves). Since analog octavers are all pretty cranky, they usually have a type of envelope control built in to them to let them fade in and out naturally.

So, my vote would be to simplify the envelope controls and to add -2, -1, direct, and +1 octave controls to the pedal. This would still give you all the envelope options you'd need with a cp-251, and add an effect that would be in demand by synth, guitar and bass players along with a valuable studio effect. Add an MF-101 to the mix that is controlled by the envelope and it would be awesome.