Upper Note Limitation
Upper Note Limitation
Obviously the Minitaur is billed as a bass machine - and definitely no complaints there - but what was the point of arbitrarily restricting the oscillators to only play up to a certain note value?
I think it would sound excellent in the higher registers, especially when combined with some audio-range LFO, detuning, etc, etc.
Anyone have any info on the Moog policy in this regard?
I'm guessing the upper limit of playable notes is controlled digitally within the unit, but I'm not sure. Anyone have any info on this?
Anyone 'considered' how to work around this issue to extend the functionality of the Minitaur?
Anyone had any feedback directly from Moog reps on this issue?
R
I think it would sound excellent in the higher registers, especially when combined with some audio-range LFO, detuning, etc, etc.
Anyone have any info on the Moog policy in this regard?
I'm guessing the upper limit of playable notes is controlled digitally within the unit, but I'm not sure. Anyone have any info on this?
Anyone 'considered' how to work around this issue to extend the functionality of the Minitaur?
Anyone had any feedback directly from Moog reps on this issue?
R
Re: Upper Note Limitation
The upper limit has nothing to do with "moog policy".
The limit is due to circuitry. Moog went to great lengths to replicate the original Taurus pedals. The oscillators were v/hz in contrast to the more common v/oct. V/hz is cheaper to build, lent itself easily to the one octave pedalboard, and lack of LFO/pitch bend (in the original) did not require v/oct. But V/hz has a smaller pitch range because the voltage doubles for every octave and you quickly reach the power supply voltage, and you can't go higher than that. That's why it has an upper limit.
The limit is due to circuitry. Moog went to great lengths to replicate the original Taurus pedals. The oscillators were v/hz in contrast to the more common v/oct. V/hz is cheaper to build, lent itself easily to the one octave pedalboard, and lack of LFO/pitch bend (in the original) did not require v/oct. But V/hz has a smaller pitch range because the voltage doubles for every octave and you quickly reach the power supply voltage, and you can't go higher than that. That's why it has an upper limit.
Gear list: '04 Saturn Ion, John Deere X300 tractor, ganged set of seven reel mowers for 3 acres of lawn, herd of sheep for backup lawn mowers, two tiger cats for mouse population control Oh you meant MUSIC gear Oops I hit the 255 character limi
- thealien666
- Posts: 2791
- Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:42 pm
- Location: Quebec, Canada
Re: Upper Note Limitation
MC, are you telling us that the Minitaur has an internal V/oct to V/Hz converter for its oscillators ?
Moog Minimoog D (1975)
DSI OB6
DSI Prophet REV2
Oberheim Matrix-6
Ensoniq SQ-80
Korg DW8000
Behringer DeepMind 12
Alesis Ion
DSI OB6
DSI Prophet REV2
Oberheim Matrix-6
Ensoniq SQ-80
Korg DW8000
Behringer DeepMind 12
Alesis Ion
Re: Upper Note Limitation
If it is similar to Taurus 3, then yes.
Gear list: '04 Saturn Ion, John Deere X300 tractor, ganged set of seven reel mowers for 3 acres of lawn, herd of sheep for backup lawn mowers, two tiger cats for mouse population control Oh you meant MUSIC gear Oops I hit the 255 character limi
Re: Upper Note Limitation
But is this consistent with the fact that the Minitaur has a CV/Gate input?
Does this imply it is actually a v/oct system?
Does this imply it is actually a v/oct system?
Re: Upper Note Limitation
interesting to read about this matter. Certainly, moog is smiling from the background.
If the limitation has to do with "moog policy", I cannot underline this. There are no really overlapping features to other moog stuff, e.g. to the SP. The differences are to huge (different sound, storing, Filter 6-24, overload, arp, less hidden knobs...)
I cannot belive on the technical side, that there is no possibility to unlock this limitation. Maybe, someone comes out presenting a solution, even it is not an ordenary OS.
If the limitation has to do with "moog policy", I cannot underline this. There are no really overlapping features to other moog stuff, e.g. to the SP. The differences are to huge (different sound, storing, Filter 6-24, overload, arp, less hidden knobs...)
I cannot belive on the technical side, that there is no possibility to unlock this limitation. Maybe, someone comes out presenting a solution, even it is not an ordenary OS.
Re: Upper Note Limitation
The CV jacks are v/oct and is converted to v/hz internallyRichard J wrote:Does this imply it is actually a v/oct system?
There is nothing to be unlocked. It's an inherent limitation of the v/hz system and opamp technology. For every descending octave, the voltage halves. Assuming maximum power rail of 12V and a design top pitch at 12V, each descending octave goes 12V, 6V, 3V, 1.5V, 0.75V, 0.375V, 0.1875V. As you descend in the lowest octaves you are creeping into the microvolt offset error domain of opamps. Offset error is a necessary evil of opamps and cannot be avoided. To compound the problem, offset error will drift so you can't implement an auto-correction factor with software. Offset error translates to tuning error. The lower you push the v/hz oscillators, the worse the tuning. That is why v/hz oscillators have a limited range of useable frequencies. We've known this since the 1960s.smut wrote:I cannot belive on the technical side, that there is no possibility to unlock this limitation. Maybe, someone comes out presenting a solution, even it is not an ordenary OS.
Gear list: '04 Saturn Ion, John Deere X300 tractor, ganged set of seven reel mowers for 3 acres of lawn, herd of sheep for backup lawn mowers, two tiger cats for mouse population control Oh you meant MUSIC gear Oops I hit the 255 character limi
Re: Upper Note Limitation
o.k. seems to be no posibility. What a bummer!
Do you think, the sound of the minitaur would be different with OSC v/oct ?
Do you think, the sound of the minitaur would be different with OSC v/oct ?
Re: Upper Note Limitation
Yes and no.
A v/hz oscillator is essentially a v/oct oscillator with the omission of the linear voltage to exponential current converter. That converter has zero impact on the timbre of the oscillator.
However there are timbre differences between oscillators of different waveshaping designs. The timbre of a ramp with distorted shape is going to sound different than a clinically shaped ramp with perfectly straight edges. The impedance coupling between stages also impacts the sound.
A v/hz oscillator is essentially a v/oct oscillator with the omission of the linear voltage to exponential current converter. That converter has zero impact on the timbre of the oscillator.
However there are timbre differences between oscillators of different waveshaping designs. The timbre of a ramp with distorted shape is going to sound different than a clinically shaped ramp with perfectly straight edges. The impedance coupling between stages also impacts the sound.
Gear list: '04 Saturn Ion, John Deere X300 tractor, ganged set of seven reel mowers for 3 acres of lawn, herd of sheep for backup lawn mowers, two tiger cats for mouse population control Oh you meant MUSIC gear Oops I hit the 255 character limi
Re: Upper Note Limitation
you are well informed, thanks a lot!
If there is no technical way inside the minitaur to play the upper notes, it would be necessary to switch off the upper notes? Now it plays the middle C on every higher key.
I love the sound very much and I'm thinking about to play these higher notes extern by pitch or something with pitched samples and the lower ones out of the minitaur. It may make no sense but it is just a crazy idea. In this case, upper "silent notes" out of the minitaur are required.
If there is no technical way inside the minitaur to play the upper notes, it would be necessary to switch off the upper notes? Now it plays the middle C on every higher key.
I love the sound very much and I'm thinking about to play these higher notes extern by pitch or something with pitched samples and the lower ones out of the minitaur. It may make no sense but it is just a crazy idea. In this case, upper "silent notes" out of the minitaur are required.
Last edited by smut on Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Upper Note Limitation
All sounds very technical..!
I had no idea it was constructed like this.
As for the upper note, I have actually used this limitation to my advantage, ie by having Osc 2 detuned by an octave while Osc 1 is fixed. I can then play a melody in C on Osc 2 whilst Osc 1 holds the note.
I'm still unsure how the unit knows that at a certain point, the Osc's shouldn't play any higher.
I have read all the technical replies so far, but I would love to hear what Moog (Amos et al.) could tell us.
R
I had no idea it was constructed like this.
As for the upper note, I have actually used this limitation to my advantage, ie by having Osc 2 detuned by an octave while Osc 1 is fixed. I can then play a melody in C on Osc 2 whilst Osc 1 holds the note.
I'm still unsure how the unit knows that at a certain point, the Osc's shouldn't play any higher.
I have read all the technical replies so far, but I would love to hear what Moog (Amos et al.) could tell us.
R
- _DemonDan_
- Posts: 1273
- Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:52 pm
Re: Upper Note Limitation
Hi smut,smut wrote:If there is no technical way inside the minitaur to play the upper notes,
it would be necessary to switch off the upper notes? Now it plays
the middle C on every higher key. In this case, upper "silent notes"
out of the minitaur are required.
Since there is no built-in keyboard, I'm assuming you are using a MIDI
controller keyboard.
Many of them allow you to set the playable range for a particular "Zone",
"Timbre", "Part", etc. (depending on brand).
Simply set the High range to that C and no MIDI notes above that will go
to your Minitaur (and thus, "silent notes").
You can then add a second "Zone", "Timbre", "Part", etc. on your controller
that only plays the upper range of MIDI so that it can play a different synth.
_ _DemonDan_ _
Re: Upper Note Limitation
@_DemonDan_:
Thx for your answer.
Of course, I use a midi controlled keyboard and controll all - including the hidden knobs and can store "patches" for a quick select. Very comfortable without the editor software.
I know to split the keyboard but not all have this possibility. I only try to figure out all for playing the full range of octaves.
Thx for your answer.
Of course, I use a midi controlled keyboard and controll all - including the hidden knobs and can store "patches" for a quick select. Very comfortable without the editor software.
I know to split the keyboard but not all have this possibility. I only try to figure out all for playing the full range of octaves.
Last edited by smut on Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
- _DemonDan_
- Posts: 1273
- Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:52 pm
Re: Upper Note Limitation
If you're willing to get a little tricky, you can squeezesmut wrote:I only try to figure out all for playing the full range of octaves.
three more notes out of the Minitaur:
Turn the Fine Tune up so that C now plays Eb.
Now set the transpose on your MIDI controller to play
three half-steps lower.
You can now play up to the Eb above that C.
_ _DemonDan_ _
Re: Upper Note Limitation
Yes - thought about that, but hadn't tried it yet.