MF-109M - yet another VCA/EnvGen mockup

Plug in here for info tips and strategies for your Moogerfooger Analog Effects. Connect more than one for plenty of fun!
Bryan B
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:13 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: MF-109M - yet another VCA/EnvGen mockup

Post by Bryan B » Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:39 pm

Panvelope?

Here is a version with some of the suggestions included and a back panel for discussion purposes. The Dual envelope outs are Insert style TRS outputs (to cram both outputs into the back panel). I didn't label the inputs as audio, since I am hoping we could use them for any AC or DC signal. I dropped the sensitivity knob since the Drive could do the same thing I think. The Pan Knob would only pan using the first input and disable the second input when it isn't in the off position (weird I know). Length is cool as it could act as a frequency input when looping (creating a potential VCO?).

I think there could be special modes activated by MIDI that could turn it into a voltage sequencer (sliders could go up for output 1 and down for output 2), amplitude sequencer or even have the sliders turn a trigger on or off so you could program your own 8-step gate patterns!

One of the patterns should be off and another should be random triggers (different on both outputs). Maybe you could select more memory banks over midi (like being able to do both sets of MuRF patterns).

Image
MemoryMoog Plus (with Kenton Midi Upgrade Kit) MF-101 Lowpass Filter, MF-102 Ring Mod, MF-103 Stage Phaser, MF104M Delay, MF-105M MIDI MuRF, MF-107 Freq Box, MF-108M ClusterFlux and CP-251 Control Processor.

radioland
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:47 am
Location: Switzerland

Re: MF-109M - yet another VCA/EnvGen mockup

Post by radioland » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:39 pm

That`s a great discussion going on here, thanks for all the input! Based on all the suggestions and requests I came up with two new layouts, one being really close to your last one, Bryan.

Image

Here I added two more sliders, one for envelope amount (fully positive to fully negative) and one for panning. If the loop switch is OFF, you can statically pan your signal. If the loop switch is ON, the position of the slider determines wether the panning starts left or right and how wide spread the panning is.

I guess it makes sense that the drive knob could manage the sensitivity duties. So I left the sensitivity knob out and put a MuRF pattern knob in. Nevertheless I still love the possibility to "filter out" sounds via the sensitivity knob, so maybe you could still squeeze the drive knob in above the loop switch and keep the sensitivity switch where it "originally" was.

On the back panel I would put the following ins and outs:

-Audio in 1
-Audio in 2 (inputs could be used separately, so you could process two sounds with the same envelope)
-Audio out 1
-Audio out 2 (if only one input is used, you can still get a stereo output)

-Envelope out (the envelope would work for both channels)
-Gate out (it would be a shame to leave that one out)

-Gate length in
-Feedback in
-VCA level in
-Gate/Trig in

I guess you have to first put inputs for all the knobs in here before you can add more goodies. At least that`s the philosophy on all the other Moogerfoogers.

Image

Here I went down the "dual envelope" route. In the top right section (I know there is a naming confusion) you could individually choose the amount of the two envelopes, from fully negative to fully positive. I left out the pattern and feedback knobs and put in a pan knob instead. Imagine what you can conjure up when you pan between two separate channels (possibly with different sounds) with separate envelopes...

As for the ins and outs:

-Audio in 1
-Audio in 2 (inputs could be used separately, so you could process two sounds with the same envelope)
-Audio out 1
-Audio out 2 (if only one input is used, you can still get a stereo output)

-Envelope 1 out
-Envelope 2 out
-Gate out

-Gate length in
-VCA level in
-Gate/Trig in or pan in

The problem in all this is how to put all the things we wish for in one Moogerfooger. I like the first version better and think it would be more user friendly. If you want to have more than one Moog oscillator, you buy multiple Freqboxes, so for more than one envelope you buy multiple 109s...

I don`t know if gate length and the hold stage are the same. I know that the attack starts with the opening of the gate, and that the release starts with the closing of the gate. Is the hold stage not only one of the stages between attack and release that can be omitted if the gate is too short?

Maybe we all will be surprised this year by Moog - they have the "torrero" thing up their sleeve, and maybe it turns out to be a "MF-109M torrereo" of some sorts :wink:

Cheers (and sorry for my inability to use photoshop...), radioland
Sub Phatty, MF-101, MF-103, MF-104M, MF-107 (3), MF-108M, CP-251 (2), EP-2, Gibson Les Paul Studio 60s Tribute, Fender 50s Precision Bass, EBS Valve Drive, Lehle Sunday Driver, EHX Big Muff Pi, EHX Stereo Pulsar, TC Electronic Trinity Reverb, Logic Pro X

radioland
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:47 am
Location: Switzerland

Re: MF-109M - yet another VCA/EnvGen mockup

Post by radioland » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:48 am

One more thing for the first idea: You could put another rocker switch in the center column that would toggle between two different uses of the slider section. One side would activate the envelope section as it is labeled. The other side would turn the 8 sliders into MuRF-style amplitude steps. This would somehow break the Moogerfooger rule of "one function per knob", but on the other hand you would thus have control over all the parameters on the panel.
Maybe you would then have to take the next step and give the faders little motors who put them in the correct position when you toggle the switch, because if you don`t your settings can get confused.

Cheers, radioland
Sub Phatty, MF-101, MF-103, MF-104M, MF-107 (3), MF-108M, CP-251 (2), EP-2, Gibson Les Paul Studio 60s Tribute, Fender 50s Precision Bass, EBS Valve Drive, Lehle Sunday Driver, EHX Big Muff Pi, EHX Stereo Pulsar, TC Electronic Trinity Reverb, Logic Pro X

Bryan B
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:13 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: MF-109M - yet another VCA/EnvGen mockup

Post by Bryan B » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:25 am

I was looking at the descriptions radioland gave of the back jacks and it seems like 10 jacks (not including MIDI) would be too many according to the previously released Moogers which currently have a 9 jack max. We could possibly visually argue to include 10 jacks for this one. If it were up to me there would be a giant jack field on the back for every possible input and output (but I am taming it back to try and be realistic with this).

I was wishing we could use a TRS plug for stereo in (or mono in with TS plug) but I talked myself out of that since somebody would plug a pedal into it (providing +7v voltage to the input) and probably fry something haha. They have used TRS inputs for the MuRF Tap/Step control and the feedback Insert loops on the Cluster (and the 104M Delay) so that is why I thought we could use it for the Envelope Outputs. I had both envelope outputs on the back because there was a polarity slider for each which meant you would have 2 totally different envelopes unless they were set exactly the same. I personally really like the variable polarity slider concept. Just think you could have one effect come in with one VCA and have another effect come in when that one is fading away. Such a cool way to combine fooger timbres!

I get now what you were saying about how the sensitivity knob would work, that is different than drive. Maybe a center detent knob would let you turn left of center to filter through what frequency triggers the gate and then turn right to give it more drive. That would still be CV controllable for fun results. Maybe it should be separate Drive (for audio input) and sensitivity (for gate creation)?

The Length knob probably should also be titled Rate for the looping mode. Length/Rate or Length/Frequency?

I forgot or left out some of the original ideas for the jacks in back:
trigger/gate in: I need to add those inputs. Maybe TRS jacks for both trigger inputs and both envelope outputs?
VCA CV input: This would need 2 controls again (only if it a a dual envelope).
The Gate out: Useful for extracting a gate from a signal (with frequency sensitivity it could be used to create varying outputs).

What if Panning and VCA were combined somehow? It would take 2 VCA's to pan or 2 VCA's for seperate channels. Maybe a mode switch between VCA and Pan as to allow auto/modulated panning or the normal envelope controlled VCA? I don't think you would be using both modes at the same time and it could cut down on jacks on the back to say VCA/Pan control.

While I think the envelope/amplitude slider mode switch would look coolest as a rocker, I don't think that needs to be playable so I would say it could be the smaller switch style. that might allow more panel room? The Drive, Output and Mix knobs are tiny on the ClusterFlux, maybe we could use that concept here as well to get more in.

No matter how it would end up, I think this fooger will fit in perfectly with all of the other foogers, which is the goal here. I would use it with any other fooger with much different results, which tells me these could sell in multiples!
MemoryMoog Plus (with Kenton Midi Upgrade Kit) MF-101 Lowpass Filter, MF-102 Ring Mod, MF-103 Stage Phaser, MF104M Delay, MF-105M MIDI MuRF, MF-107 Freq Box, MF-108M ClusterFlux and CP-251 Control Processor.

User avatar
_DemonDan_
Posts: 1273
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:52 pm

Re: MF-109M - yet another VCA/EnvGen mockup

Post by _DemonDan_ » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:48 am

Bryan B wrote:...it seems like 10 jacks (not including MIDI) would be too many according to the previously released Moogers which currently have a 9 jack max...
How about a TRS jack for a combined IN 1/2 that would be a Mono In when a TS cable is inserted.

A TRS Male to L+R TS Males (aka Inset Cable) or a short TRS Male to L+R TS Females cable would allow Stereo In.

Now we're back to 9 jacks.
_ :twisted: _DemonDan_ :twisted: _

radioland
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:47 am
Location: Switzerland

Re: MF-109M - yet another VCA/EnvGen mockup

Post by radioland » Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:09 pm

I know that the maximum of jacks at the back panel is 9, but maybe we just have to be brave and believe in the 10... The best way to reduce jacks in my opinion is to make the audio inputs and outputs stereo. So you could fit in
Envelope out
Gate out
Gate/trig in
Gate length in
Feedback in
VCA level in
Pan in

As long as the two envelopes share everything except the amount, I don`t think it is necessary to have two envelope outs. A cp-251 can get you there easily, and I guess that almost everybody with such an MF-109 would be the owner of a cp-251.

Even if I personally don`t care for animation, I came up with one last ridiculous layout that can be everything to everybody (an egg-laying wool-milk-pig, as we say in Switzerland):

Image

This concept is called the radiator grill for obvious reasons, so you only have one knob.
But this way you get a dedicated animation section and have no dual duties for knobs or sliders. The top row features one new idea: Make the loop control not a switch but a real fader. In the bottom position, there would be one envelope. A bit upwards there would be two or three envelopes (the second and third fading in amplitude) and so on, until in the top position the envelope would be infinitely looping. Interesting pseudo-delays to be had...
Sad thing about this design is the lack of knobs. But even with tinier knobs you could not have 24 tweakable parameters at once...

I would go with Bryans first version with the green rocker switch - plus amount slider, plus pan slider and a loop knob instead of the switch.

Cheers, radioland
Sub Phatty, MF-101, MF-103, MF-104M, MF-107 (3), MF-108M, CP-251 (2), EP-2, Gibson Les Paul Studio 60s Tribute, Fender 50s Precision Bass, EBS Valve Drive, Lehle Sunday Driver, EHX Big Muff Pi, EHX Stereo Pulsar, TC Electronic Trinity Reverb, Logic Pro X

Bryan B
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:13 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: MF-109M - yet another VCA/EnvGen mockup

Post by Bryan B » Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:27 pm

Hahahahah! I added the "Extra OOOOOMPH" footswitch on the bottom for my own amusement.

Image
Last edited by Bryan B on Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MemoryMoog Plus (with Kenton Midi Upgrade Kit) MF-101 Lowpass Filter, MF-102 Ring Mod, MF-103 Stage Phaser, MF104M Delay, MF-105M MIDI MuRF, MF-107 Freq Box, MF-108M ClusterFlux and CP-251 Control Processor.

Alien8
Posts: 503
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:55 am
Location: Canada!!

Re: MF-109M - yet another VCA/EnvGen mockup

Post by Alien8 » Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:02 pm

:lol: :lol:

I think you just topped the April fools joke they had planned - what ever it is!!

I'm working on a block diagram, and can see how quickly this can get out of hand... I will post soon, maybe Monday by the time I'm done.

What I get hung up on is the "Moog" aspect of these things. The MuRF has so much tweaking, the ring mod has many options too, but both are in a manageable package. I'm close to a solid idea for a dual ADSR (ASDR?) stereo panner OR a single HAHDSR stereo panner with Moog twists. This is something that I had an idea for a while back but never committed beyond a napkin sketch - Thanks for the inspiration to go further with it!!
Vibration emanates from all things, even nothing. Using awareness to translate vibration into "music" is something that I am whole heartedly grateful for.

User avatar
Vsyevolod
Posts: 712
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:38 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: MF-109M - yet another VCA/EnvGen mockup

Post by Vsyevolod » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:10 pm

I love all the ideas put forward so far!

In my mind, I don't see this as a guitar stomp box pedal as much as I see it as a Control Module. Putting it in a similar box as the CP-251 gives you a much greater freedom in terms of real estate. The CP has 9 knobs and 24 jacks. Since it functions much more like the CP-251 or the VX-351, it should be set up like them... more like a modular design that Moog is almost... quite... nearly giving us already. It could be called the CM-151 or CM-451 (to keep the X51 name going).

Now start letting your ideas flow with this new real estate and let's see what happens! There's room for another 4-way mult. Plenty of jack space for stereo ins and outs. Room for a radiator grill plus plenty of knobs and jacks.

Stephen




.

Bryan B
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:13 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: MF-109M - yet another VCA/EnvGen mockup

Post by Bryan B » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:31 am

It is great to see more replies and ideas in this thread! Keep the ideas coming.

I like the CP-Style idea, so I might have to whip something up for that. It seems the CP-251 is so lonely that it needs a friend. I could see a trigger/gate sequencer and logic utillity in CP format as well.

I think we should start a presale campaign to get Moog to make the envelope/gate pedal. It seemed to work for them before.
MemoryMoog Plus (with Kenton Midi Upgrade Kit) MF-101 Lowpass Filter, MF-102 Ring Mod, MF-103 Stage Phaser, MF104M Delay, MF-105M MIDI MuRF, MF-107 Freq Box, MF-108M ClusterFlux and CP-251 Control Processor.

radioland
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:47 am
Location: Switzerland

Re: MF-109M - yet another VCA/EnvGen mockup

Post by radioland » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:02 am

In my mind, I don't see this as a guitar stomp box pedal as much as I see it as a Control Module.
I would love to have this Gate/Env/VCA-tool in a cp-251 format, too. But somehow, Moog Music doesn`t share this idea. The request for such a device started to come up around 2005 and has been expressed regularly ever since. There have been some great looking and tempting concepts, but none of them came into being.
That`s why I came up with the somehow new idea of putting the long awaited VCA/EnvGen in a Moogerfooger stompbox format, so it wouldn`t only be useful for synthesists. What`s more, the three cp-style boxes that already exist are all control voltage processors and are not intended to handle audio. I think Moog will/should stick to that concept. And as no Moogerfooger has a CV input for volume or gate, you need a box with audio ins and outs...
I like the CP-Style idea, so I might have to whip something up for that. It seems the CP-251 is so lonely that it needs a friend. I could see a trigger/gate sequencer and logic utillity in CP format as well.
I think that a cp-sized new unit could accompany the "Env/Gate" and all other Moogerfoogers really well (and has as well been requested for a long time). So why not extend the topic and start a sequencer-cp drawing contest 8) ...
I think we should start a presale campaign to get Moog to make the envelope/gate pedal. It seemed to work for them before.
Being the Swiss greenhorn that I am, what is a presale campaign? :roll:

Anyway, everything that keeps this thread and the crusade for an Gate/Env/VCA Moog tool alive is welcome!

Cheers, radioland
Sub Phatty, MF-101, MF-103, MF-104M, MF-107 (3), MF-108M, CP-251 (2), EP-2, Gibson Les Paul Studio 60s Tribute, Fender 50s Precision Bass, EBS Valve Drive, Lehle Sunday Driver, EHX Big Muff Pi, EHX Stereo Pulsar, TC Electronic Trinity Reverb, Logic Pro X

Bryan B
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:13 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: MF-109M - yet another VCA/EnvGen mockup

Post by Bryan B » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:37 pm

I thought I would give the CP style a try, so here is a first attempt at an AP-250 Amplitude Processor. It has 2 envelopes with independent gate inputs, independant trigger pattern banks, one-shot/loop controls and inverted outs. You can use each section independently or maybe it could be normalled to work all together like the sample and hold section of the CP-251 (or the EG/VCA pedal designs earlier in this thread. It would have been nice to have amount controls on the envelope outs, but that can be done with simple or inverting attenuators.

Image
MemoryMoog Plus (with Kenton Midi Upgrade Kit) MF-101 Lowpass Filter, MF-102 Ring Mod, MF-103 Stage Phaser, MF104M Delay, MF-105M MIDI MuRF, MF-107 Freq Box, MF-108M ClusterFlux and CP-251 Control Processor.

radioland
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:47 am
Location: Switzerland

Re: MF-109M - yet another VCA/EnvGen mockup

Post by radioland » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:54 am

Tasty! I like the modular-ness of this design and how you can get more ins and outs to the panel.

Today I worked a bit on the sequencer-companion to the Env/Gate pedal. Here is my first idea:

Image

On the right side at the bottom you have two 8-step modules. In my mind they have two fixed positions at the bottom: One to have that stage skipped and one to have it off (a pause). From there upwards you can set the levels freely.

On the left side there are two identical control sections:

-Rate: Two individual LFOs to determine how quickly the sequences run
-Gate length: Two individual controls to determine how long the voltage level is held
-Direction: 3-way chicken head to determine wether the sequence runs upwards, downwards or randomly

-Gate out: Think of the Env/Gate Fooger and all synths with a gate in...
-1V out: Spreads the set levels in the sequence section over +/-1V (or 0-1V)
-5V out: Spreads the set levels in the sequence section over +/-5V (or 0-5V)
-Trig in: With this input you can trigger each new step individually
-Rate in: So you can create rhythmic variations via CV

On the top (the knobs should all have the same size :oops: ) you have three global controls (two chicken heads and one rocker switch):

-Reset/On/Off: Here you can start your sequence, stop it and later go on, or reset to the beginning
-Parallel/Series/Long run: On the left side the two sequences run individually, in the middle position the two sequences are played after each other and on the left side the two form one long sequence (only the knobs and inputs of section 1 are active, but you could use the outs of both sections).
-+/-5V or 0-5V: Depending on the inputs of your synths/gear you choose the matching output voltage range

I know that this box doesn`t have half of the possibilities of, say, a doepfer dark time. But that one has the CV connections on the back side, has smaller jacks and you need to have really small fingers :wink: ...
But you could "midify" this box, give it a nice editor and start playing with things like clock divisions, quantification and more... But somehow I`d like to have a potential sg-751 to look and feel simple and analog 8) .

I`m not quite sure about the proportions of this design, as I compared to the cp-251 only by eye...

What do you think of this companion?

Cheers, radioland
Sub Phatty, MF-101, MF-103, MF-104M, MF-107 (3), MF-108M, CP-251 (2), EP-2, Gibson Les Paul Studio 60s Tribute, Fender 50s Precision Bass, EBS Valve Drive, Lehle Sunday Driver, EHX Big Muff Pi, EHX Stereo Pulsar, TC Electronic Trinity Reverb, Logic Pro X

Alien8
Posts: 503
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:55 am
Location: Canada!!

Re: MF-109M - yet another VCA/EnvGen mockup

Post by Alien8 » Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:39 pm

I like the idea of the CP sized enclosure, however I do think if we are intending to produce an "effect" it should remain in the moogerfooger format. If we are making a control module that does not have bypass switches then CP is a natural choice.

I'm still racking my brain regarding the idea I had - it's complex yet simple in result. More to come soon.
Vibration emanates from all things, even nothing. Using awareness to translate vibration into "music" is something that I am whole heartedly grateful for.

EricK
Posts: 6009
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:09 pm

Re: MF-109M - yet another VCA/EnvGen mockup

Post by EricK » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:58 pm

Congratulations on your SON! Mine is 8mos today. Our first.

Nice to have a little moogerfooger in the house!

Eric


I've posted this enough times:
Image

This is supposed to have been a 4 channel audio mixer/VCA, envgens, dual trigger delay/VCA combo with an envelope follower on it for good measure
The switch would disconnect the first envgen from it, so everything would be separate, but otherwise it would be normalized to be controlled by the first envgen.
The Dual Trigger delay, envelopes, and envelope follower are all based off of the original Moog modules. The middle knob on the envelope follower section was based off the Moog Archives photo, but that wasn't a stock unit so if that knob was removed that would be perfect for the logo and model number.

I submitted it years ago to Moog but perhaps for legal reasons they can't build user submissions? I think Amos said it would be very costly to implement also.

But they already have an envelope follower circuit and they already have a 4 channel mixer.


I chose this in CP format because it wouldn't be particularly necessary to have this in a stompbox format, and with the CP, VX351 and 2, there is a hole if you rack them up.

This would complete the Fooger Synth.


I still wish they would build it but I had to go ahead and get a dotcom modular for the envelopes and VCA. I'd still get it if they built it. I don't know how well received this product would be though.
Support the Bob Moog Foundation:
https://moogfoundation.org/do-something-2/donate/

I think I hear the mothership coming.

Post Reply