104m delay firmware bug

[kingnimrod]

I'm hoping Moog will fix this bug soon. They've known about it for a while:

When you tap in a tempo, then engage modulation, the delay time defaults to the max "knob time" available in the currently selected mode (long/short). But you can then retap a tempo and make the delay time longer than the "max allowable." Once you turn the modulation amount all the way back down to zero, the delay time LED does not reflect the actual tempo of the delay. This is all very confusing. Moog tech support told me it's a bug in the firmware that needs to be fixed, that they also saw in testing on their end.

Anyone else notice this bug?

Can someone from Moog chime in on when this will be fixed?

[Portamental]

Yes I did notice it. There at least 3 other bugs I noticed that have to do with the other under the hood functions. The implementation of tap-tempo is only so-so on the MF-104M, it can be improved in many ways. I did make a small report to a Moog engineer about how I feel it could be improved. There probably will be a firmware update at one point. Just don't hold your breath for it. The MF-105M has a few similar bugs.

[stiiiiiiive]

I'experienced something similar several times indeed. This must be due to the fact I most of the time set the modulation amount very low but not zero. There seems to be a point that triggers a delay time jump.

[Headphones]

Interesting. Does the bug get in the way of anything you're trying to accomplish? Or is it just a operational annoyance? (Something that it should be able to do, but can't because of the bug). Has it made some happy accidents? And furthermore, how will Moog be able to fix it from firmware? A midi download? Or do we all send in our 104/5/8m's back to the Moog plant to get updated???

[kingnimrod]

They've sent me firmware before. I think it's transmitted via Midi if I recall correctly.

They delay sounds nice but they should really fix it - if it were a $200 delay I wouldn't expect it, but $600. Um, yeah. Please fix it moog.

[alexone]

I have already posted this link elsewhere in the forum.
This is the bug I encounter, its very hearable and make the mf104 unusable in that manner (changing time with midi control). The tech support answered that they're working on a new firmware.
https://soundcloud.com/alexquse/midi-moog

However, I really love this pedal!!

[David Smyth]

I have already posted this link elsewhere in the forum.
This is the bug I encounter, its very hearable and make the mf104 unusable in that manner (changing time with midi control). The tech support answered that they're working on a new firmware.
https://soundcloud.com/alexquse/midi-moog

However, I really love this pedal!!

I get a similar problem when controlling the delay time of my MF-104M with Midi (well recently anyway, I don't think it was always this way). As soon as the Midi cable is plugged in, I get an annoying noisy filter sound over all of the echoes.. It's almost like an unwanted ring modulation sound. The only way to remove the noisiness from the echoes is to unplug the Midi cable and power the MF-104M off and on again. So I've just been using tap tempo recently and avoiding the Midi control..

Is this similar to your (or anyone else's) findings? If not, I may have to contact Moog - either to notify them of this bug or perhaps repair my unit.

Regards,
David.
NZ

[EricK]

David,
I have a Z, which is obviously a different unit, but wanted to mention nonetheless that the only time I have ever noticed what sounded like ring modulation was when the frequencies of the input signal were approaching the upper limits of the BBD chips. The M has a greater frequency range, were you getting those ring mod sounds on the echoes regardless of the input frequency?
Eric

[Alien8]

I have already posted this link elsewhere in the forum.
This is the bug I encounter, its very hearable and make the mf104 unusable in that manner (changing time with midi control). The tech support answered that they're working on a new firmware.
https://soundcloud.com/alexquse/midi-moog

However, I really love this pedal!!

I get a similar problem when controlling the delay time of my MF-104M with Midi (well recently anyway, I don't think it was always this way). As soon as the Midi cable is plugged in, I get an annoying noisy filter sound over all of the echoes.. It's almost like an unwanted ring modulation sound. The only way to remove the noisiness from the echoes is to unplug the Midi cable and power the MF-104M off and on again. So I've just been using tap tempo recently and avoiding the Midi control..

Is this similar to your (or anyone else's) findings? If not, I may have to contact Moog - either to notify them of this bug or perhaps repair my unit.

Regards,
David.
NZ

This is the sound created when the delay is over clocked into the "extended" delay times. It sounds like you are modulating your delay with a square wave, and the delay time is simply beyond the "clean" sounding delay tone. MIDI CC 87 is a delay time multiplier that will make the delays sound exactly like you have recorded - really degraded, full of artifacts, frequencies and noise. This is normal.

Check what you are sending to the pedal through midi - if you are sending a CC87 value, this could be your culprit. If you are sending something to control the delay time via MIDI - an LFO, envelope OR are controlling the LFO & delay time you could also venture into this delay territory. It's part of the reason why you own a moog

[David Smyth]

Thanks for the replies!

Firstly, I'll just point out that it wasn't me who posted that recording, and I'm not sure if my problem is related.

I'll have to experiment with different input frequencies and Midi channels etc. more tonight when I get home, but my Midi chain is like this:

Korg KP3 Kaoss Pad 3 (generating Midi Clock) -> Little Phatty St. II -> Slim Phatty -> Slim Phatty -> MF-104M.

Now I'm pretty sure I set the MF-104M to a different Midi Channel so that it ignores unwanted Midi CC Messages from the Phatty Chain/KP3 (but still receives the Midi Clock), but maybe it's swapped back or something - because it seems possible to me that, as Alien8 said, something like Midi CC 87 might be causing my problem..

While testing this type of thing I have the Modulation Amount set to zero, so the modulation/LFO section isn't to blame.

I'll investigate when I get home and report back!

Thanks,
David.
NZ

[David Smyth]

I just realised that the artifacts I have been hearing are normal - simply a result of the Time Knob in it's max. position, while switched to 'Long' Delay Time and under Midi Clock Control - so it's dividing the clock to a slow division and therefore delay rate, producing the artifacts as normal.

So yea, problem solved if you could call it that. Thanks for the swift responses anyway!

David.
NZ

[Alien8]

I do have to say that while I love the extended delay effect produced, it's annoying that its there when you don't want it to be. If you are trying to get just a clean quality delay, and you use an LFO to modulate the time, you very often end up in sonic slop territory. It happens to me on the ClusterFlux all the time.

The fix is to adjust your time and LFO amount so that it doesn't creep into this realm, but that is tricky on the fly.

I'm wondering how the Z responds to an external CV at this limit... Now I need to try!

[alexone]

Hello
I posted the sample with artifact produced by the 104m. First, the support of Moog recognised that this is a bug. The problem doesn't seem to be similar with the problem of David Smyth. It doesn't sound like ring modulation or filter, which is a common issue, when you tap the tempo over the limit. It's produces with midi tap tempo only. So, my problem is specific to midi. Alien8 and David Smyth describe something different. The sound is absolutely not degraded. There are only shrill artifact. I tried several midi controllers, check the midi message many times.... the problem appears even with feedback to 0
I always waiting for the firmware upgrade promised. I am disappointed because it is impossible to use a midi tap tempo without encountering that issues.

[Alien8]

... That sucks, it will be fixed... Being patient is the hard part!!

[kingnimrod]

It seems like Moog doesn't really care about fixing bugs. I've been in contact with them about this issue for about a year with zero effort on their part to fix it. Always more emphasis on new products than fixing issues with existing products.

Are they incapable of fixing things or do they just not care?