Midi controller advice for Moog MF-104M

[facon]

$950 (ballpark) Ouch!!! I suddenly feel my need diminishing!

Haha, I've had that same response from about 10 people about my Moog Delay. It's all relative I guess

[Portamental]

Actually, I am not arguing the high price. For all it seems to do, it may very well be worth it. I just don't have a $950 dollars need for it. But I do have a $600 need for a second MF-104M.

[_DemonDan_]

$950 (ballpark) Ouch!!! I suddenly feel my need diminishing!

The Novation ZeRO SL MKII is an excellent controller for MIDI effects/instruments:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SLmk2zero

YouTube of MF-104M controlled with a ZeRO SL MKII:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74S-FgRdtoY

The ability to label each knob is staggeringly useful.

[_DemonDan_]

If you have an iOS device you could use the Line 6 MIDI Mobilizer for presets:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MidiMobil2

It comes with a free app called MIDI Memo that's a simple MIDI Recorder/Player

You could record the controller values needed for an MF-104M "preset" and
then dial up that "song" and press play. It would need less than 1 measure of time,
even for the most complex settings. You could store hundreds of presets using
very little memory of your iOS device.

You could even get creative and have "realtime" controllers moving in a longer
song that would add hours of automation if you wanted it.

[Portamental]

The Novation ZeRO SL MKII is an excellent controller for MIDI effects/instruments:

Yep, I have seen this in your video and I have been crazy about it ever since. As much as I would like to get something from Sweetwater (i came this close from buying the LP Solar Edition with CV out a year ago). Customs and taxes were the deal breaker in the end.

A friend of mine is product specialist for Akai (and distributor of Novation). I got a Max 49 from him, but the Zero was not in stock that particular day.

With all that said, will you still talk to me ?

Keep up the good work, I tremendously enjoy your demonstration videos. Actually I have been out of touch with the real world for a year (darn work). Upon my return, I came across your MF-104M video (same as Zero Mk II ?). Wot ??? The Moog delay is back??? I was playing one the next day

Still talk to me ??

Anyway, I have a BCR2000 stashed in a drawer, I was supposed to make it work this past week-end...but I was too busy with this new Mooer 5 watts valve amplifier head.

There's an idea that just popped my mind... I will talk to you about it soon.

[EMwhite]

I've been a big proponent of the Novation SL MK II but the firmware is garbage and Novation apparently abandoned the platform.

Functions which worked well in a prior release broke during a non-essential upgrade of AutoMap. I say "non-essential" because I don't use AutoMap and didn't really need it but when the free upgrade was available, I went for it.

But the bigger problem is that the 14 bit controllers, which are highly coveted (especially for Moog gear that benefit from it) are very poorly implemented. And when I say this, I am talking about the fact that you have to rotate the rotary pot about 100 times in order to get from one end of the spectrum to the other.

The touch sensitive controls are handy; as Dan said being able to label sliders and pots with text is nice, but you'll find yourself stumbling through the pots on the left hand side and inadvertently shifting banks.

On the non-"zero" version, the keyboard is very very nice. The stick, however, is crap (feel of it). And the worst part is that the pitch bend resolution is not true 14-bit. It sends 14-bit midi and if you monitor it with a scope, you'll see 14 bit values but it quantizes to a higher order value.

I'm shocked and amazed that more keyboard manufacturers don't provide controllers with 14-bit Midi capability but even more aghast that VST manufacturers think that folks will be content with the course control that 0..127 support.

[_DemonDan_]

I've been a big proponent of the Novation SL MK II but the firmware
is garbage and Novation apparently abandoned the platform...
Functions which worked well in a prior release broke during a
non-essential upgrade of AutoMap.

I'm forwarding your text to the appropriate Novation engineer.

Here's hoping...

[Portamental]

^ Regarding 14 bits midi, literature of the BCR 2000 says it to designed to handle it no problem (as NRPN ??), but the implementation on the MF-104 receives the 14 bits in two CC's. Not sure how this will be programmed on the BCR. I may have to use only the MSB. Any ideas on that?

I'll see when I get to it, but in the meantime, I welcome any tips.

[EMwhite]

The bloke I was 'working with' was Dan Hargadon. He corresponded with me for several rounds a few years ago, then all went dark.

I've since sold it (it was the 25 key version which I think I paid $399 for and used it specifically for Taurus III). It worked fine, didn't lock up, etc. but I think they got a bit lazy and maybe wooed by kids that want matrices of 144 buttons that can launch samples or loops... you know the drill.

[EMwhite]

^ Regarding 14 bits midi, literature of the BCR 2000 says it to designed to handle it no problem (as NRPN ??), but the implementation on the MF-104 receives the 14 bits in two CC's. Not sure how this will be programmed on the BCR. I may have to use only the MSB. Any ideas on that?

I'll see when I get to it, but in the meantime, I welcome any tips.

The BEST 14-bit implementation leverages a continuous high quality pot (encoder) such as the type Waldorf use, firmware to allow for scalable end-to-end 'num of turns', an adherence to the rule of 32. (Maybe 4-5 complete turns is comfortable for a given parameter and a higher number for another). But that only exists on paper

No single turn pot and micro controller combo exists to reliably track a full 14 bit range across the typical 270 degrees of travel and as mentioned in another post, low resolution ADCs will only go 7 bit reliably; better ones are cost prohibitive and addressing becomes a challenge.

So most manufactures, forced to compete with $99 controllers just throw in the towel.

Any controller which addresses midi CCs should be able to drive 14 bit but it will be cumbersome (if not impossible) for broad sweeps and this is done by having a 'coarse' and a 'fine' knob.

You'll have to see how the Berringer goes about it and report back. Perhaps their implementation is good?

Also, anybody interested in seeing where music tech is going should check out CopperLan and specifically their new CME keyboard. Still going to be a while until its a household name, but at 4x the resolution of 14-bit Midi and with fancy features like cat5 transport and parameter feedback, it's poised to change things in this space.

[Portamental]

Thanks EM for your details....

Just installed the BCR and just as I thought, I only programmed MSB on the CCs i was interested in. I don't do much midi. None when it relates to synths... and for the rest, nothing either. The BCR , which I bought to control the Mopho initially (I don't do Mopho anymore either) has been stashed in a drawer for a couple of years now.

The BCR is fun to use, easy to program. A fine unit I think. What followed was beyond words... I think I'll write a post about it.

I will get more in depth on the BCR, 14 bits, and stuff... whatever.

It's no suprise that i loved the MF-104 from the start, but put a Midi controller on it and it becomes an analog delay on steroids. I just finished a two hour session with it, I am speechless. Total bliss.

[Portamental]

More on BCR and 14 bits and the MF-104M

I knew that the MSB would give enough control. While I puzzled on why the 14 bits were implemented as two CC's , I also knew that you get only so much resolution from the encoder.

I did not see the purpose of programming the LSB. But you were right EM. When you program the second CC, there is your finetune.

Well thought! Now that I know, I would not want it any other way.. lots of CC's to work with, plenty of control at the tip of a finger. With my earlier set-up, the foogers are too far away to reach conveniently and expression pedal control is what it is, very helpful in some cases but not always.

But wait, there's more.... the BCR support two expression pedals to be used as switches assignable to any CC (or else). I have programmed one for bypass (the foogers are in a rack, inconvenient for bypass) and the other to control the filter color. Now this is starting to look as a set-up

Good job Moog design team! Kudos Behringer for a fine controller!

[Sculptair]

I don't know if you are still looking for a midi controller, but I use a FAMC LiquidFoot 12+. It could hold hundreds of presets for your MF-104M and Minitaur (up to 16 midi enabled devices) and call them up on the fly, or by song, simultaneously by device. Also you can configure 4 expression pedals to change any of your parameters for any of your pedals on the fly. FAMC also has a smaller controller called the LiquidFoot Jr. Take a peek...

[DonRock]

Hello everyone, new moog enthusiast here.
I have a 104m in the mail and I thought I might start setting up my midi controller to be able to create presets for it. I have the roland fc 300, so since several peolple suggested it for use with th 104m, I thought hijacking this thread might be beneficial to others who seek similar info in the future.

Since I'm also new to midi programming, I was wondering if anyone has been able to create presets on the fc300 for the moog delay and what mode I should use to program them. The fc has several modes of operation, so I'm guessing I should use the one that can send the most cc messages per pedal. The thing is, the manual doesn't state which mode that would be. My best guess would be either cc mode or patch mode. It would be even better if I could simultaneously send the cc messages to the delay and some program changes for my other midi gear on other channels - by pressing one pedal on the fc300 of course.

Another thing. Let's say I'm fooling around with the delay and stumble upon a great sound that I want to save to a preset. Can the fc300 "read" the settings on the moog and save them to a preset, or do I have to guess the approximate values and put them in one by one?

Thanks for your help!

[MoltenVoltage]

If anyone wants a basic MIDI controller, we make custom ones (1, 2, or 3 switches) like this:



They run on a coin cell which lasts for years.

We just need to know the exact MIDI info you want sent each time the button is pressed.

.:. Bill