Moog Music Forum

Share Ideas and Pass the word

Voyager noise problem (link to clip inside)

Tips and techniques for the Voyager

Voyager noise problem (link to clip inside)

Postby joliver » Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:58 pm

Hi there,

I searched some information regarding Voyagers noise problems but wanted to ask some more help.
When doing subby bass patches in a song having sparse arrangement I can clearly here the noise "behind" or "surrounding" the notes.
Here's a very basic triangle bass patch. No resonance or anything.
Just tweaking the filter cut off and in the end switching off the oscillator. I get the same amount of noise from every oscillator.
Zippyshare's conversion makes the clip sound worse than it is. I recommend downloading the wav.

http://www41.zippyshare.com/v/12447639/file.html

The clip was recorded straight to Rme Fireface 400's line input.
I have noticed this problem before but it became a bit of a problem in a track I'm working on at the moment.
Is this normal or should I get my Voyager fixed?
Sending it back to Moog might not be the easiest thing for me because I live in Europe.
The serial number of my Performer Edition is 2621.

Hope you guys can help me out

-JO
joliver
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:50 pm

Re: Voyager noise problem (link to clip inside)

Postby Radl25 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:17 pm

Hello!

I think I have the same (watch my topic: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14677 )
Please tell me if you find out if zhis is normal or not.

Thank you!
Benjamin
Radl25
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:26 am

Re: Voyager noise problem (link to clip inside)

Postby thealien666 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:12 pm

Hello joliver.

I have downloaded the wav file (soundcloud messes everything up with the recompression).

What I hear is the normal sound of triangle waveform from Voyager. Sometimes, the waveform knob has a little too much range passed the triangle and induces an additional small notch than the one already present at the top of the triangle waveform, and that can create the slight buzzing sound you are hearing.

Simply try to move back the waveform knob a little to try to return to a more pure triangle. I remember vividly my Voyager Old School having the same "problem" when I had it. That is one of the main reasons why I sold it. I didn't like the continually variable waveform design. Makes it difficult to get pure Triangle or Sawtooth or Square depending on knob position and internal calibration of that knob.

The good news for you is: I strongly believe it's perfectly normal behavior, and that your Voyager is not defective.
Donuts, is there anything they can't do ? (Homer J. Simpson)
http://www.youtube.com/alainhubert
http://www.soundcloud.com/thealien666
User avatar
thealien666
 
Posts: 2204
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:42 pm
Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: Voyager noise problem (link to clip inside)

Postby thealien666 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:23 pm

@radl25

Your first sample is recorded overloaded via an external microphone. Not good. When can hear you talk at the end... :roll: Please try to record your Voyager directly into your DAW without saturating the audio signal.

But from what I've seen looking at your videos, everything seems perfectly normal. A very faint audio bleed is to be expected with the Voyager.
As for the filter oscillation, it's perfectly normal again and is a feature of this synth (and many others like it). Might I suggest you read the manual thoroughly ? And also learn a little more about analog subtractive synthesis ?
Donuts, is there anything they can't do ? (Homer J. Simpson)
http://www.youtube.com/alainhubert
http://www.soundcloud.com/thealien666
User avatar
thealien666
 
Posts: 2204
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:42 pm
Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: Voyager noise problem (link to clip inside)

Postby Radl25 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:20 am

Yes I know it´s a very bad record, sorry for that! But for some reason i realised that you can hear the noise better via mic. And it´s not because of the noise floor of the mic :roll: Very hard to explain, i am really sorry! I´ll record another one directly through a ADC soon. But it sounds the same like jolivers noise.

@thealien666:
I wouldn´t describe the sound as buzzing, it´s more a Pink noise like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pink_noise.ogg

I can also play the pure noise when turning the volume of channels (mixer) down to zero or deaktivate them. So I don´t think it has something to to with the triangle/Square mixing. But tell me if I am wrong! The noise behaves exactly to the VCA. I´ll record this too. It sounds like I am gating the noise and open the gate to the behaviour of the VCA.
Radl25
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:26 am

Re: Voyager noise problem (link to clip inside)

Postby Themaktima » Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:42 am

I have the exact same noise on my Voyager (Select). Rudi Linhard had a look at it but stated that this is normal for a Voyager and that it wouldn´t be possible to make it more silent. You can hear it through patches at normal signal level, and though it´s better on the main outs compared to the headphone jack, I must admit that it´s is a little hard to take.
Themaktima
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:04 pm

Re: Voyager noise problem (link to clip inside)

Postby thealien666 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:54 pm

If you people want perfectly silent Voyagers, just flip the power switch to off. :roll:

This looks more and more like nitpicking to me.

According to you, all my analog synths must be all defective ! The Korg Mono/Poly (produces hum and hiss when VCA opens), the Minimoog D (produces a "thump" with the VCA envelope from overshooting at the end of the attack stage on very short times), the MFB Kraftzwerg modular (has a somewhat noisy filter, and slightly offset LFO waveforms), etc...

These are not defects. These are normal analog circuits behavior. It's quirks like these that make those instruments "alive". If you want perfection, use plugins or VAs. But you'll loose everything that makes an analog synth what it is: an instrument with life, character, and spirit.

You don't see complaints about noise on guitar pick-ups of a $3000 Gibson ? Why not, compared to your levels on your Voyager there is certainly a lot of it ? Simply because that's an integral part of the very nature of the electric guitar instrument. If their owners are annoyed by it, they simply add a noise gate in the signal path.

So stop looking for problems where none exist, and concentrate on making music with more than a single Voyager with a single oscillator with a triangle waveform with the volume at maximum. Otherwise, you don't need a Voyager, you could do the same with a Korg Monotron (with a much more noisy output, too! :wink: )

Truth is, when mixed with other instruments, or tracks, in a song, you'll never be able to hear that "noise" your talking about.
Donuts, is there anything they can't do ? (Homer J. Simpson)
http://www.youtube.com/alainhubert
http://www.soundcloud.com/thealien666
User avatar
thealien666
 
Posts: 2204
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:42 pm
Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: Voyager noise problem (link to clip inside)

Postby Radl25 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:26 pm

@thealien666

The way you write here is really not necessary. I am happy you own more experience and share it with us but switching off my voyager is a NO GO :wink: It´s just many people saved a long time to afford an instrument like this and they just want to know if their afford works correct. That´s it! If this noises are normal, then everything is fine. Nobody said that the voyager sounds bad. I love the sound and I know why I have saved/spend my money on it.
Radl25
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:26 am

Re: Voyager noise problem (link to clip inside)

Postby thealien666 » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:39 pm

@radl25

I'm sorry, I admit my last post was unnecessarily harsh. :oops:

It's just that I feel a little annoyed, sometimes, by hypochondriac people about their Voyager. :?

Again, my apologies to you.
Donuts, is there anything they can't do ? (Homer J. Simpson)
http://www.youtube.com/alainhubert
http://www.soundcloud.com/thealien666
User avatar
thealien666
 
Posts: 2204
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:42 pm
Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: Voyager noise problem (link to clip inside)

Postby Themaktima » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:29 am

I´d like to share a different perspective on this matter.

First of all, if I personally think that the noise level is a problem, it doesn´t make me feel better that others have the same issue.

And yes, I have other analog gear, like a Vermona perfourmer and an Eurorack modular, or a Dark Energy. So I know that analog synths can be peculiar when it comes to noise. Still, I would expect a difference between the perfourmer and the Voyager.

A lot depends on customers´ expectations towards the product they purchase. Moog create a very high expectation by positioning the Voyager as a product of excellence, and they charge for such an excellent product. If the product doesn´t meet this expectation, why should customers not have the right to complain?

Actually, Moog should be interested in customers giving their honest feedback instead of shutting up because they might be considered to be hypochondriacs or the like ;-) Only if they get feedback they can make their product better.

Now there are quite a bunch of Voyager owners expressing that the noise level is a problem for them - so it´s not a solitary opinion, this is important to me! - whereas Moog would say, the noise level is a normal thing, especially for analog synths.
With whom should a Voyager owner who doesn't care about the noise problem solidarize with? With other customers, or with the producer? Might well be that the one making a bad decision here could face a problem himself one day, and maybe would be glad if Moog would be listening and if he got support from other customers.

There was a time when a crappy Chinese keyboard was built into some Voyagers... Customer´s were very unhappy with this afaik. Why did Moog do this? Did they think a crappy keyboard would make customers more happy than the quality Fatar keyboard? I can only guess, and my guess would be that they did it to cut cost (I think they were replacing a lot of keyboards at that time, carried out at their expense).
Themaktima
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:04 pm

Re: Voyager noise problem (link to clip inside)

Postby thealien666 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:38 pm

Moog Music have found a way to get rid of all those Chinese keyboards, they've installed them all on the Old School model. I know, because I had both an OS and an Electric Blue at one point. And the difference between the quality of the two keyboard keys was easily evident. Just by the feel and the finnish. The Chinese keys had sharp edges on their sides from non-sanded plastic molding. The Fatar was smooth all around. The key action on the Chinese is "cheap". The Fatar has a quality feel. Not as "buttery smooth" as a Pratt-Reed from a well maintained Minimoog D, but still nice.

Moog Music is slowly evolving into a musical instrument mass production company. It used to be a musical instrument shop, producing high quality custom-made analog synths. But under Mike Adams management, profits are more important than complete customer satisfaction. After all, they have to pay for that fancy building they have renovated (at great cost) and now own.

My own Old School broke down under warranty (like many other members here). And had to be sent back twice because it wasn't fixed properly the first time. Even when it came back with a completely new analog circuit board (because they couldn't find the cause of the problem on the original one) it wasn't as carefully calibrated as the original one from the factory. When I complained about that, they told me that it was "within specifications".

Much like the noise issue in question in this thread.

Shortly after, I sold my Old School (The Electric Blue was a gracious loan from my local music store, while my OS was out for repairs all that time).
I will never buy another current Moog Music product again. Although I love Moog synthesizers from other eras. But that's just me.
I'm sorry to say that since Bob Moog died, the company he had (re)created ins't in very good hands with Mike Adams, who doesn't know bleep about quality analog synthesizers and 100% customer satisfaction but only sees dollar signs.
Proof of that are some of the products his company came out with: glow-in-the-dark Theremin, the completely ugly and useless (not to mention ridiculously expensive) 10th anniversary Gold Voyager, the also ridiculously expensive and faulty Moog Guitar (see threads about the Wilkinson Wobble issues on this very forum) that they had to slash the price in order to get rid of over-stock, etc...

If Bob was alive and still in charge of his company, a returned synth for repairs would not leave his shop until it was 100% perfect, not just "within specs"... Bob was a tool maker, a true artisan, with a passion for his work and a dedication to all his customers. Mike Adams is a business man, with a passion for profits and some disregard towards complete customer satisfaction. After all, repairs done under warranty aren't profitable. And like any business man, he's trying to cut costs in order to generate more profits. But, more often than not, cost cutting measures against the number of returned defective units under warranty can be a hazardous balancing act.

All this to say that Moog Music ain't what it used to be, and that the quality level of their products and repairs aren't the same either. So a little noise is to be expected, sadly.
That's my humble opinion on it.
Donuts, is there anything they can't do ? (Homer J. Simpson)
http://www.youtube.com/alainhubert
http://www.soundcloud.com/thealien666
User avatar
thealien666
 
Posts: 2204
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:42 pm
Location: Quebec, Canada


Return to Voyager Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 0 guests